How good was Liston in Ali vs Liston 1?

Nah, it was just horrible refereeing by Walcott. If Liston took a dive, he wouldn't get up. Sonny actually told the whole story and it seems like a perfect description of what happened in the ring:

"Clay caught me cold and the count was messed up, and that's all there was to it. Clay knocked me down with a good punch. Anybody can get caught cold in the first round, before you even work up a sweat. And when I was down, Clay stood right over me. No, I never blacked out, not for a second. But I wasn't gonna get up, either, not with him standin' over me. See, you can't get up without puttin' one hand on the floor, and so I couldn't protect myself, and he can hit me on the way up.

So there was Walcott and Clay wrasslin' over me and Walcott finally got him to a corner or somethin', and then I got up and Clay come back and we started back to fightin' again. And Nat Fleischer began wavin' his arms at ringside and Walcott stopped the fight. Nowadays Nat Fleischer says he was just callin' Walcott over to tell him that the timekeeper wanted to see him or somethin', but other people says it was Nat Fleischer stopped the fight.

I was never counted out. I coulda got up even right after I was hit. And I still felt pretty good when I did get up. I mean I could still go on. What Walcott shoulda done, he shoulda sent Cassius to a neutral corner. When the referees call you out in the center of the ring before a fight, they tells you that: go to a neutral corner. And that's when they count you out, not with no fighter standin' right over you. They shouldn't have fighters refereein' no fights no way. They should have people that don't get excited."

 

Physically Liston was still good , I mean apart from clay who else that was active ,in that first fight would have done as well against him? Problem was he was totally unprepared for clays style an this unraveled him which is why he quit in his corner an did it again in the rematch

 

Exactly!! Sonny was simply not prepared to handle Ali's speed and razor sharp jab and combinations!

 

It's a cliche but styles really make fights. Muhammad was all wrong for Sonny.

 

Just because Liston was further from his peak when he lost to Ali which most observers wouldn't dispute doesn't prove Ali and Frazier were at their peaks when they met. Would you disagree with the consensus or disagree that a consensus even exists at all that the post-banishment Ali was a diminished athlete?

 

You know more about boxing than I forgot. That being said 72-74 Ali was a cagier fighter than the pre-banishment Ali or even early post banishment Ali, but he wasn't the force of nature he was pre-banishment.

 

I'm holding the Chuvalo quote for a later date. He was in the ring with the pre and post iterations of Ali and said the latter was a diminished fighter. No one was in a better position to know.

 

It's interesting as the caginess likely comes from the realisation that he can be beaten ala Frazier in FOTC.

I would never envisage Ali resorting to some of the tactics that he took to win e.g. excessive holding, but he certainly displayed a knack of knowing what it takes to win that we never quite saw pre-banishment.

However, I find it interesting that he was training a version of Rope A Dope as early as the first Liston fight. I also find it intriguing that where he dominated Liston in the first fight, the best work was done when he boxed behind a higher guard, came off his toes and outscored Sonny off the jab and pivot.

A lot of the ingredients of what he did so well in the post-exile version of his career can actually be found in moments during his pre-exile career, if you look hard enough.

Depending on which side of the fence you sit, in the pre-exile state, his opponents weren't good enough to force it out of him and then with better opponents in the post-exile career, fight circumstances allowed him to demonstrate what he always had.

 

When he returned from his banishment he was worse and his competition was better.
He learned he could take a punch. That was a blessing and a curse.

 

I think it was one of Ali's best performances and Frazier's best. Contrary to appearances, it was very close. I think Ali was slightly better against Terrell, Williams, and maybe Folley, but that's not certain. Certainly, none of them were Joe Frazier.

 

You don't think he learned that against Cooper, Liston and Chuvalo?

 

Cooper said Ali learned how to hold between their first and second fight. Liston and Chuvalo had a lot of success going to the body. It's a bigger target after all. It seemed mid and late career Ali took an awful lot of hits to the head.

 

Pretty good but not great. Still gave Ali problems at times till he gassed out and gave up but I doubt Liston at his best would do much better tbh.

 

Actually, there's plenty of documentation Liston trained hard for the rematch regardless of whether or not he was willing to take a dive. He even expressed anger to the press that it would be difficult to maintain his peak condition after Ali postponed due to a hernia.

 

Right on the money.

” Angelo Dundee, challenger Clay’s trainer, expressed amazement. He stated: “As long as I've been in boxing, I never heard of any man quitting his sparring a week before an important fight unless he was very stale or hurt in some way.”

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-irving-daily-news-texan/155160875/

Liston didn't think much of Clay and thought he'd see him off easily even with the injury. Had he known the challenge, Ali represented, he likely would've requested a postponement until he recovered.