Is RJJ higher P4P then Hagler?

Why would anyone vote hagler, because he didn't take steroids ?

 

Let's not talk about this. This makes me uncomfortable. It's a good thread but I don't want to talk about it. Let's actually just-McGrain, can you delete this thread for us, please? Like it never happened ever? We could always make it again somewhere else, but for right now, if you don't mind. I'll just step out of your way and let you take care of it. I don't want to distract you from deletion. Go ahead. Don't mind us.

 

Yeah I also don't want to think about it.

I'd rather think about Hagler on roids and the corpses he'd have left in his wake.

Wait.

Let's not go there either.

 

I think so yes RJJ has 23 world title wins compared to 13 for Hagler.

RJJ has more impressive feats P4P wise.

RJJ was the man for a decade where as Hagler was the man for 7 years.

Objectively it's RJJ for me.

 

I don't disagree with the weighting that Roy deserves his plaudits for being successful going up in weight but Hagler fought for the undisputed title and was the man at the weight - splintered belts, more politricks and the way Roy went about his business, I can't be bothered to run through each title fight but I strongly doubt that they all carry the same prestige or weighting of what Hagler's title fights carried.

 

I would say yes, without question. Hagler was a tad overrated.

 

Roy Jones Jr was Heavyweight Champion.

the definition of P4P.

 

True but on the flip side you could say Haglers best wins were against fighters moving up in weight.

Although to be fair Hearns was alot taller than Hagler and he had success above Middleweight so that has to be taken into consideration.

But RJJ objectively beat the likes of Toney, Hopkins, Hill, at their best weights which can be an argument in favour of RJJ.

I get what you're saying though and it happens alot in the modern era. Where fighters skip through divisions winning paper titles and sometimes it's not as meaningful as a fighter dominating a single division.

But I do think RJJs overall P4P achievements going from Middleweight to Heavyweight. Aswell as being more dominant for longer and having a significant edge in world title wins gives him the edge for me.

 

Heavyweight titlist - he was never the true champ at the weight.

I think that distinction is important - very important.

 

I also think Roy ranks higher but in terms of being the man - only his 168 lbs beating of Toney allows for me to compare with Hagler being the bonafide man at 160 lbs.

The thing with p4p, those that know themselves and become *Chris Eubank voice* LEGENDARY at the weight such as Hagler, Monzon, Louis and Ali are disadvantaged against those such as a Duran and Hearns who rose above weight and had legendary moments but not the consistency or authority at the weight that the others had sticking to their one weight.

Of course, at HW, the single division with no upper limit does mean that fighters like a Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano, Louis, Ali actually rank fairly high p4p, all things considered. I would venture no harder punchers at 190 lbs than Dempsey, Langford and Marciano. Ali and Louis are arguably top 10 - 15 ATGs p4p.

How do you rate someone like Barbados Joe - crushing giants, but how good were they and even if they weren't that great, does it lessen his own achievements of doing the feat?

Mickey Walker Vs Sharkey is insane. Greb is insane. B-Hop going up and being so competitive at such an advanced age is insane - Roy becoming a HW titlist is insane.

Hagler going through his pre-title run, coming up the hard way and then holding onto his title for so long and crushing all but two challengers to his title is also insane - how do we rank it fairly and consistently?

I'm starting to lean towards tiers of greatness rather than strict 1 - 10, 11 - 20 arbitrary ratings. I don't trust my judgements of consistency, skillset and résumé to be strong enough to keep the same methodology once I start getting past the top 15 - 30 range.

 

I don't see how you rank Hagler higher. Haglers best win is Hearns who was a 175 champ that beat Hill. RJJ knocked Hill out. RJJ really has every base covered. RJJ was more dominant against a much larger number of ATG fighters who went up to higher weight classes and did more things at those weight classes. Hagler was a MW lifer and MW was RJJs lowest weight class. Haglers 3 best opponents even future 175 lineal champ Hearns was coming from the lower weight classes. Hagler beat Hearns easily but lost to Leonard and almost lost to Duran.

The core of Haglers greatness is really based on being compared to the other 3 or 4 "kings" in Leonard, Hearns, Duran and Benitez.3 of those guys were taller than Hagler and I think P4P(or size for size) he was the best but them having a competitive round robin sorta drags them all down here and its a subjective assessment for a reason. And at 39 and not aging well at all RJJ beat Trinidad whose probably better then all the kings H2H. RJJs really got everything.


RJJ and Toney were the first HW contenders and champs to come from MW in like 50 years? Montell Griffin was the shortest LHW champ since Harry Greb. Hopkins reigned at MW then went up to LHW in his 40s. That generation just took a blowtorch to the record books. RJJ has got the H2H advantage, P4P advantage, resume advantage. Haglers a MW lifer and there RJJ at MW is as close as one gets to being the GOAT of a weight class they never fought in.

 

It is close. But I tend to give Hagler the edge. His defeat against Leonard was very controversial.

 

Hagler for me