This one puzzles me .... Johnson-Hart-Burns-Johnson

RockyValdez · Oct 15, 2025 at 7:48 PM

Pugguy said: ↑

I’ve been thinking of having my own signature sign off.

How about, “I’m right, you’re wrong, talk again soon…if you’re lucky”?
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I like it! Can I share?

Pugguy · Oct 15, 2025 at 7:56 PM

RockyValdez said: ↑

I like it! Can I share?
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Feel free. Sharing is caring.

mcvey · Oct 16, 2025 at 1:59 AM

Pugguy said: ↑

I hear you.

However, Johnson was nothing if not often an enigma in the ring.

I understand that some fighters can hide behind total domination otherwise with the suggestion that they carried an opponent who they could’ve KO’d at any point otherwise.

Some claimed that Ali carried Terrell, such was the comprehensive and easy nature of his victory but at least Ali was honest and settled those pundits up by admitting that he didn’t carry Terrell, he simply wasn’t able to KO/stop him.

Now this may or may not be true of Johnson in some fights but there does appear to be quite a few fights in which Johnson could’ve ended matters far sooner IF he was so inclined.

When he won the title, Johnson dumped Burns hard - twice in the first round.

Immediate domination and significant damage exacted. It was simply a slow and very deliberate twisting of the knife thereafter.

All things being equal, just imo, he could’ve just as easily put Burns out in < 4 rounds.

The Ketchel fight is another example. of course Stanley was much smaller but the crux point is that Johnson did carry him until Stanley raised his ire.

Also, in his first fight vs Flynn, it’s reported that Flynn made a scathing, racist just prior to Johnson promptly flattening him.

In their rematch on film, Johnson is absolutely toying with Flynn, at no point putting the pedal to the metal to end matters, which I think he could’ve done…again, if he was so inclined.

It was often all about putting on a show/performing some torture to Johnson and protraction of fights were also beneficial to the sale of fight films.

I think after their fight in Reno, Jeffries was quoted as saying that he didn’t realise that Johnson had such a “stiff” punch.

Per observations from fighters like Fitz and Sharkey, Johnson could’ve easily had Jeff out of there in under 4 rounds - and, just imo, I think the vision of the fight supports that view.

Of course the Hart fight wasn’t filmed so associated motives don’t apply there but without bias, the accounts generally suggest that Johnson beat the **** out of Hart.

Now some might argue as to why Johnson didn’t make a stronger claim for a shot by KO’ing Hart - but Johnson was already overdue on a shot and Jeff made it clear that he still wasn’t budging, even when accounting for Johnson’s actually beating Hart in whatever manner it might’ve been achieved.

Funny, I don’t know if anyone else ever read same - but I did read an article stating that z Johnson purportedly claimed that during Hart fight, a Hart backer appeared in Johnson’s line of view, shifting his coat to expose a gun that he was carrying.

After seeing that, Johnson claimed that he took the foot off the pedal, mindful not to KO Hart outright.

Not at all saying that is fact but I did read it eons ago. Of course Johnson also claimed that he threw the Willard fight (he was strapped for cash and sold the story to Fleischer who didn’t actually run it to print). I think it’s pretty obvious that claim wasn’t true at all.

I mean it is a fact that Johnson was psychologically up against it given the racism of often predominantly white spectators. Suffice to say, it was also reported that spectators were required to check their guns in Reno.

Reading the accounts of Johnson - Langford it sounds as if Johnson did everything but KO Sam. Dropped him multiple times and beat him up badly.

Even Ali marvelled at Johnson doing as much as he did while potentially facing great perils.

Finally, for sure, I’ve pondered as to exactly how hard Johnson could punch - and it seems something he did want to prove on some occasions to any doubters as at the time.

I can also see the possible errs in uniformly affording him the benefit of the doubt in instances in which he didn’t achieve a KO in fights that, if he did actually have a fair punch, a KO should’ve been the more likely outcome.
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He punched hard enough to floor Langford ,Jeannette ,and McVey multiple times,stopping McVey in their last encounter,I'd guess he hit around as hard as an Ali ?P

mcvey · Oct 16, 2025 at 2:03 AM

HistoryZero26 said: ↑

With Johnson the trend is fairly overwhelming though its not about any one fight. Jacks opponents while very good P4P were smaller then any HW champs opponents. If Johnson had power it'd show.

The other big problem with Jacks resume is a lot of his best wins came when a fighter was clearly not their best whether they were very young, old or they had a "comeback" later on. Not just Jeffries(who I don't think was that good) but Langford, Jeanette, McVea, Tony Ross, Fitz and Felix all fall into this category. Martin had the most abrupt regression in the history of the HW division. I would add Flynn but Johnson rematched him.

So you say he almost knocked out Langford. It was a 15 round fight and Langford was a 20 year old just jumping from MW. Langford has the most fights ever against HW contenders. I count 78. At this point Langford had 2 fights with a Jeanette who was just breaking north of .500. Johnson was king herod going after baby Jesus.
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Johnsons title challengers had the highest % weight average until Louis won the title. Langford did have more fights under his belt than Johnson when they fought,both were around 20lbs below their optimum figthing weight.

mcvey · Oct 16, 2025 at 2:06 AM

HistoryZero26 said: ↑

Jack was mainly a point fighter who took awhile to stop even small opponents. Its his biggest flaw and its why he lost his belt in the end. Jacks biggest early KOs were against old Fitz, Felix and regressing Martin.

Jack had some KD power. Gardner is a better fighter then Hart IMO and the difference between Jack beating Gardner and losing to Hart in 2 debatable decisions is that Jack got Gardner down twice and did not get Hart. Johnsons not a mover who couldn't hurt his opponents but he really needed time to accumulate damage and wear an opponent out. Which I agree this makes him a bad matchup for Jeffries in his prime hes at least got a path he could at least contest the rounds and with a favorable judge he can get the decision. Someone like Langford or even a Lang are going to put Jeffries into a woodchipper.
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I agree with the gist of your post ,but Johnson lost his title because Willard absorbed all the early punishment and made his move when Johnson was at the point of exhaustion.
It wasnt like Jack hadn't tried to stop the giant early,he had.

Pugguy · Oct 16, 2025 at 2:35 AM

mcvey said: ↑

He punched hard enough to floor Langford ,Jeannette ,and McVey multiple times,stopping McVey in their last encounter,I'd guess he hit around as hard as an Ali ?P
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Vs Jeffries in what is reliably identified as round 4, after twisting Jeff’s arm behind his back, Johnson clearly hits Jim with a sizzling right hand, causing Jeff to immediately and reflexively lurch forward into Johnson’s arms.

The round ends shortly thereafter and Jeff paws at his nose as he heads to his corner - good chance that was the very punch that broke Jim’s nose.

he grant · Oct 16, 2025 at 2:39 PM

HistoryZero26 said: ↑

With Johnson the trend is fairly overwhelming though its not about any one fight. Jacks opponents while very good P4P were smaller then any HW champs opponents. If Johnson had power it'd show.

The other big problem with Jacks resume is a lot of his best wins came when a fighter was clearly not their best whether they were very young, old or they had a "comeback" later on. Not just Jeffries(who I don't think was that good) but Langford, Jeanette, McVea, Tony Ross, Fitz and Felix all fall into this category. Martin had the most abrupt regression in the history of the HW division. I would add Flynn but Johnson rematched him.

So you say he almost knocked out Langford. It was a 15 round fight and Langford was a 20 year old just jumping from MW. Langford has the most fights ever against HW contenders. I count 78. At this point Langford had 2 fights with a Jeanette who was just breaking north of .500. Johnson was king herod going after baby Jesus.
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Johnson's biggest and best opponents were before winning the title .. he fought and defeated everyone (bum decision w Hart) .. he was by choice a defensive fighter , calculating and surgical... that's what he was and chose to be .. He clearly could hit enough .. I'd say in the Holmes range , maybe a bit harder .. it's a shame we don't have pre-title footage of him ....

Pugguy · Oct 16, 2025 at 8:09 PM

It’s not always proof positive but Johnson had outstanding back/shoulder muscles that can lend to some very decent punching power: -

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SolomonDeedes · Oct 17, 2025 at 2:11 AM

Jess Willard said later that he wasn't worried about Jack Dempsey's power because he didn't believe anyone could hit harder than Jack Johnson. As he told it, he walked away from that fight with three broken ribs and a crack in his cheekbone you could feel with your fingertip four years later.

https://ibb.co/dFDKhWp

IntentionalButt · Oct 19, 2025 at 6:38 PM

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This one puzzles me .... Johnson-Hart-Burns-Johnson

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This one puzzles me .... Johnson-Hart-Burns-Johnson

RockyValdez Active Member Full Member

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mcvey VIP Member Full Member

Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

he grant Historian/Film Maker

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SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me