Usyk gets a time machine, does he clear the top level of every era and go undefeated

Your post is an utter joke.

Singling out his losses?


How about the fact that he had 3 controversial fights with Ali, with 2 of them being in the early 70’s, when Ali was still great??

How about the fact that he only lost a split to a prime version of Holmes, who is probably a top 5 HW on anyone’s list??


Frazier was fast. No, he wasn’t as great as Mike. But as great as other smaller HW’s like Tua, who had some success in a better era.

Stylistically, he’d cause plenty of issues to many of today’s guys.


Now you have said that they both wouldn’t have stood a chance.

Ha!

Wouldn’t have stood a chance??


Against Fabio Wardley??

At this moment in time, we literally don’t even know if Wardley is a world level fighter or not.


Dubois?? Static, zero head movement. Folds under pressure. His claim to fame is beating an aged AJ.


Then go through the rest of the list. Most of them are B level guys who’d have done nothing in the 90’s.

Today’s top 10 is weak.


Both Frazier and Norton would be in the mix competing.

The majority of the guys in today’s top 10, have done nothing for you to say that they wouldn’t have stood a chance against them.

 

You wrote that Frazier was able to get to Ali on the inside, but I pointed out that many other, lesser, fighters did that too. That's not proof Frazier had quick feet or hands, 'cause even slower Foreman could get to Ali too.

 

So he should fight more lower-ranked opponents like the top guys in the 70's too? A lot of those opponent would've been cruiserweights or trimmed down light heavies today, like Doug Jones, Jerry Quarry, Henry Cooper, Jerry Luis Garcia, Leotis Martin, Jurgen Blin, Rudie Lubbers, Bob Foster, etc, etc.

 

Norton got knocked out by a "nobody" who was 12 lb under the cruiserweight limit in 1970. He got knocked down by Scott Ledoux in a draw, and brutally knocked out by Shavers and Cooney. Imagine Norton taking a left hand from 280 lb+ Zhang who squashed Joe Joyce's chin, or even just a jab from Dubois...

Both Wardley and Dubois are bigger and more powrful than any opponent Norton, or Ali, ever faced. Dubois actually has quite okay foot speed the way he's moving and bouncing, and some head movement here and there... but compared to Usyk he's amateurish.

 

First of all, Foreman knew how to cut off the ring to get Ali to the ropes or corner. No one was saying Foreman is fast, although his foot speed is underrated.

Second, Frazier is the only man to beat a beat a near Prime Ali. Plenty of people managed to close the distance, but even then most of them got beat up or failed to consistently stop Ali from doing what he wanted to do even when he got older.

Third, we were discussing how Frazer's feet weren't particularly fast and I said what he was doing was obviously effective. Frazier's rhythm with his bobbing and weaving were able to time Ali's jab to get close enough to apply pressure. He was making Ali miss and throwing off Ali's own timing. Boxing isn't a video game where whoever has the highest amount of power and speed wins, there's tons of factors going on.

Frazier's hand speed is quite evident on film and his career was remarkable with or without Ali. We can simply watch the footage to see he had quick hands and good head movement to get into position to punch, he wasn't slow. Certainly faster than modern fighters like Martin, Peter, Joshua, Arreola, Bakole, etc. You're acting like there are a ton of guys faster than Frazier. The reality is if guys like Joshua and Chisora could tag Usyk, Frazier absolutely could, and even more consistently than them.

 

Where did I say that he should do that?

What are you talking about?

 

Joe did have decent hand speed.

It’s not hard to view his fights.

Everyone knows that Ali voluntarily sat on the ropes for George.

He did it to psyche him out and to empty his tank.

This is common knowledge.

 

ubareem,

1. It is obviously not as simple as the above.

2. Anybody can give fantasy examples and ask questions, with that line of thinking.


What if Ali had never fought Foreman?

We could say that if little Henry Cooper could have knocked him down, then what would have happened if George Foreman had hit him?

The same goes for Earnie Shavers.

You can apply this line of thinking to anybody.


Lennox Lewis got knocked out by Oliver McCall.

So what would have happened had he have fought the big punching Morrison etc?


Wlad got knocked out by Sanders.

So what if he’d have fought a prime Haye etc?


We could all have asked questions like that beforehand.


Yes, IF Zhang COULD have hit him flush, then maybe he could have knocked Norton out. But then he might not have gotten the opportunity, as Norton could have out manoeuvred him with ease.

The same applies to Dubois. There’s nothing to say that Dubois would have had the opportunity to have taken him out. A man who was capable of beating Ali and almost Holmes, was certainly capable of beating Daniel Dubois.


Let’s stick to the facts, and look at the whole picture.

Yes, Norton was knocked out. But he was still good enough to beat a still great Ali. He was still good enough to beat good B level HW’s of his day, and good enough to scare one of the greatest HW’s of all time in Holmes.


Now tell me who on earth your guys have beaten, to say that Norton and Joe couldn’t have stood a chance?

You are talking absolute ignorant nonsense.

List today’s top 30 guys.


At the end of the day, both Joe and Norton beat the consensus HW GOAT, and whilst he was still great in the early 70’s.

Yet your guys have hardly done anything, where most of them have hardly beaten anybody noteworthy.

1. You don’t know that they both have more power than what Foreman and Shavers had.

2. Even if they had, it wouldn’t prove anything.

3. Dubois isn’t in any way great, and again, at this moment in time, we don’t even know if Wardley is a world level fighter or not.


Again, your post is a joke.

What planet are you living on, to make statements that Norton and Frazier wouldn’t have stood a chance against those guys??

It’s absolutely bizarre.


Print the top 30.

We’ll go through them.

 

I think Usyk (who for the record I rank #1 in h2h) benefited greatly from the HW build of this era, big lumbering SHWs allow him to fully utilize his mobility and long-range game, and offer him no difficulties beyond a possible fluke right hand KO.

Usyk had much tougher matches when he was younger against explosive and proficient swarmers (Briedis, Nistor, Beterbiev in the amateurs etc) and guys that could keep up with him athletically (Hunter, Bellew etc).

I think somebody like Lewis or the Klitschkos would get absolutely cooked by Usyk, but Holyfield, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, they would give Usyk a lot of headaches.

 

But other fighters were able to do what Frazier did to Ali too, but they lacked the punching power. Ali's defensive skills and inside game weren't the best.

Frazier's hand speed is probably faster than theirs, but not faster than Joshua's. AJ's got quite fast hands and explosiveness.

 

Laying against the ropes and absorbing punches from a top 3 hardest puncher of the 70's was a RISKY strategy though. Evidently it also affected Ali permanently, and he said he was urinating blood after that fight

 

It's all hypothetical, but Ali and Holmes weren't pressure fighting power punchers. The were the opposite of guys like Zhang and Dubois, and the guys who knocked out Norton in a round. Even Frazier couldn't handle Foreman, and he never fought Shavers.

 

Yeah well I'm not a fan of Dubois, but he's probably more powerful than both Frazier and Norton, and he's got decent fundamentals with a powerful jab.

You said Dubois beat an old AJ, but Dubois was battering AJ in sparring already back in 2016.

It's all hypothetical, but I think most top heavyweights are just too good and powerful for guys like Frazier and Norton.

I'm not a Mike Tyson fan either, but I could see him competing in this era due to his speed.

 

Lol, Joshua is not faster than Frazier by any stretch of the imagination. He is a heavy handed hitter, not a fast twitch explosive guy. Frazier was much sharper.

 

Joe Frazier had much faster hands than AJ.

Come on now.