Would Ali have won the FOTC had he taken more tune up fights before?

No factually not a lie; Eddie Futch, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton and Joe Bugner have all confirmed during “exile” Ali was sparring to quote Futch he “drew crowds” I am not saying he was in training like it was some 3 year long camp for the title but Ali was throwing hands with pros getting work in that is a fact. At one time your “sort” were claiming Muhammad basically laid on the couch and didn’t lift a finger the whole time now your damage control after evidence arises is trying to act like he did what… stand around in the gym eating pie? It’s a myth Ali was in the ring across exile sparring with pros end of. Do your research but please stop messaging me with your insistent whining.

 

This. 100%

Frazier was a unique fighter. His bobbing and weaving getting under Ali's hands taking away his leverage. He had to learn Frazier, he paid to learn though.

Another factor IMV was Ali really didn't believe Frazier was on his level. He didnt pass Ali's eye test. Joe shorter, slower and Ali even had a weight pull on him. He literally said Jerry Quarry would be like tougher.

Ali was in good shape physically but he was just overconfident. He thought he would dance around for 4 or 5 rounds pepper Joe and Frazier would weaken with no answers.

Ali realized later he needed to be in the best shape of his life to deal with that pressure. In the rematch he came in outstanding condition but he also had a few tricks up his sleeve to blunt Frazier's attack.

Ali's hard won experience isn't something he could get fighting anyone else.

 

Where can i see these posts from Swagdelfadeel "sorts" claiming Ali laid on the couch and didn't lift a finger, or similar? It's a mighty big accusation. Who were the posters?

 

Interesting thought, personally i think he would have still won as he was as determined as any man could be!
On the flip side would Joe have beaten George Foreman (27-0) on the 8th March 1971

 

What he's probably referring to is those, including me, who has said he was making money touring colleges all over the US.

I have also referred to an interview he did in the fall of 1969 when stepping in as Ellis's sparring partner for a week and where he said that it was the first time he did something like that for years (I believe he actually said three years, which of course wasn't true but probably not an intended lie either).

I can add that there's a story in his autobiography where he spars one of Dundee's young pros when he's about to get back into again. In that story he describes himself as rusty and overweight and coming out of a meeting with a doctor (forgot who but probably Pacheco) telling him he will never regain what he's lost in the exile.

But I have futhermore referred to that he according to Futch was in his gym once and sparred Norton (and came back for more the following day, but that Futch then got Norton out of there).

And he did have an exhibition in June 1967, but that was the only one until the one in September 1970 according to Boxrec.

I don't think anyone has gone much further than this.

Then there are those, who contrary to Ali's own claims, say he continued going frequently to the gym and spar, but don't know what they have to support that apart from Futch's story of the Norton sparring session.

Was there a sparring story with Bugner during this time as well? If so I've missed it.

EDIT: Here, think I might have actually seen it before: https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...reveals-what-it-was-like-to-punch-ali.531058/

 

"At one time your “sort” were "
Are.... are you ok?

"No factually not a lie; Eddie Futch, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton and Joe Bugner have all confirmed during “exile” Ali was sparring. "
That doesn’t contradict what I said. Yes, he did light sparring during that period, but it was nowhere near frequent or intense enough to keep him as sharp as when he was actively defending his title against the best in the world. In fact, it wasn’t even enough to keep him in shape. There was literally an 18-month stretch where he hadn’t set foot in a gym.

Even D’Amato, who was around Ali and knew exactly how much he was sparring, confirmed that he was clearly rusty — fully aware of how little Ali had actually trained.

 

It isn't that there were a whole bunch of fighters who could help him get ready. Quarry and Oscar were both good boxers, tough and skilled enough to test Ali on paper and in reality. Oscar and particular was the closest in style to Frazier at the tine with his toughness and relentless pressure.

What people often question is if just 2 fights were enough to shake off the ring rust and sharpen Ali's reflexes and timing. Boxing history is filled out the brim with ex champions being unsuccessful in their comebacks due to ring rust. It wasn't about the quality of the two opponents, it was the quantity.

 

With more fights under his belt I think he would have had the confidence in his legs not to go to the ropes and give rounds away.I think he would have decisioned Frazier if he had a couple more fights which went into the latter rounds.

 

Actually I think if he had treated Joe with the respect he deserved and not gotten him as fired up as he was that might have made the difference. Joes intensity was fueled by his hate of Ali at that time enabling him to put forth a superhuman effort, anything less than that might have been enough to swing a couple of rounds in Ali's favour to get the decision.

 

Yeah, that’s what I remember reading, Joe went to the US and sparred a few well known names (one offs?) like Ali and Liston. What a great experience that must’ve been for the very young, fledging pro Bugner (RIP).

 

Sticking my neck out and diving into the psyche a bit, I think some people perhaps feel that any due concessions afforded to Ali as at the time of The FOTC are somehow a discrediting of Joe.

Not at all. Frazier put up a great performance and he could only beat the man in front of him. Frazier won and nothing is going to change that.

The FOTC is in the bag, and boxing history would be that much less rich if the fight hadn’t gone down at all.

Assessing Ali’s readiness for the fight otherwise is simply being objective.

In his turn, Joe lost to Foreman and many would concur, at the least, that Foreman defeated a version that was that much lesser than the one who turned up in March ‘71.

 

Some people aren't intelligent enough to entertain two different thoughts or notions at once.

It can both be true that Ali may have done better with a few more fights and training camps to sharpen his timing and reflexes, and it's also that Frazier deserves a ton of credit for beating a certified world class version for Ali who might've won a belt in multiple other eras. I think FOTC Ali would have a field day against several of the 20's, 60's, 80's or early 2000's belt holders.

To suggest Ali couldn't have done anything differently to change the outcome is bizarre given what an incredible athlete he was, that he had made adjustments before and after this match (even during fights), and that no two world class boxers squaring off facing each other 10x will produce the exact same outcome over and over. That's simply not reality, regardless of how big Frazer's "heart" was to win that match. Anything is possible.