Who would you place higher in all time p4p list? Usyk or Crawford?

Depends on what you value. I think Usyk has generally taken on stiffer competition and better fighters. But Crawford has cleaned out more weight classes and looked more dominant in doing so.

 

For me Crawford gets a pretty clear edge. For one, Usyk is limited by what pretty much all heavyweight guys (with the one exception being Ali) are limited by, a lack of great P4P level opposition.

He started his career at cruiser and went undefeated and undisputed in what has thus far been the strongest cruiser era ever, but cruiserweight is a division that hasn't been around for long. When you look at his best wins there, over Breidis, Gassiev and Bellew, are those guys notably better or greater than the likes of Postol, Gamboa and Burns? I'd put them clearly below a guy like Porter when comparing careers and resumes.

At heavy Usyk beat the two best and greatest guys of the era in Joshua and Fury and a high ranking guy like Dubois. These are great wins when considering Usyk's age and size disadvantages, but neither Joshua or Fury had proven themselves to be ATG or even P4P level guys. Joshua had been building up a solid resume but being unable to secure fights against Wilder and Fury, and losing to Ruiz set him back majorly. Fury had some of the biggest and best wins of the era over Klitschko and Wilder, but his resume was severely lacking in depth. His fight immediately preceeding the Usyk fights was a disgraceful performance against 0-0 MMA fighter Ngannou, a fight many felt he should have lost.

In terms of overall careers, neither AJ nor Fury can even really compare to Spence, and are LIGHTYEARS behind a P4P guy like Canelo.
The common argument used to discredit Buds wins over Spence and Canelo is that they were past their bests. But that could just as easily be said about Joshua and Fury, and it had in fact been a fairly common opinion to see before Usyk fought either of them. The only guy Usyk beat at heavyweight that can be without doubt seen as being at their absolute best when Usyk fought them was Dubois.

Then there's the size difference factor which although very impressive, cannot really be seen as the main factor when it comes to deciding things like this, especially not with heavyweights. If it were consistently considered to be as much a deciding factor as it is here, then surely Usyk would have to be above a great many ATGs. Robinson, Leonard, Duran, Armstrong, Pacquiao etc. they beat far greater and better fighters but none of these guys overcame the same kind of size disadvantage that Usyk had to against some of the biggest champions in history. By extension the likes of Cunningham and Wilders legacies also have to be heavily elevated. They were much smaller men (Wilder was tall but very thin, weighed in at like 208 in the first Fury fight which is less than Usyk has ever weighed at heavy) who managed to give a much bigger man like Fury trouble. Along with this Fury's legacy must also be re-evaluated because he now has to be considered one of the absolute worst weight bullies in history. He quite literally used his weight to toss and bully around Wilder who is naturally a borderline cruiserweight with toothpick legs. Lennox is also a weight bully, as are Wlad, Vitali and Bowe. Of course I don't really believe any of this, but the point is that when it comes to heavyweight, weight differences have never really been looked at in the same way as they are in lower divisions. It's why Canelo doesn't get much credit for beating Khan on the basis of his size yet there was probably a bigger weight difference between Bowe and Holyfield on fight day than between Khan and Canelo, yet Holy's size is rarely ever used as a knock on Bowe.

But when discussing Usyk people act as if him beating Fury and Joshua is basically the same thing as if Lomachenko had fought and beaten Beterbiev and Bivol while weighing no more than he did in his fights at 135. While the weight difference does matter and Usyk overcoming the weight difference is immensely impressive, it is not the same thing as Loma beating Beterbiev and Bivol.

So this idea that Crawford would have basically had to beat Canelo while weighing in at 140lbs to Canelo's 180 something just for the win to compare with Usyk's to Fury is a pretty unfair standard to hold him and really any lower weight guy to.

IMO Crawford beating Canelo is a historically much more significant win in regards to size even if there wasn't as big a size difference on paper. What makes cases of smaller guys moving up and capturing titles impressive isn't that they weigh less on fight day (Duran and Hagler both weighed in under the 160 limit, and there likely wasn't much difference on fight day yet Duran is praised for not losing badly), it's that they're not supposed to be fighting at that higher weight in the first place. That's not their best weight, not their natural fighting weight and not the weight they're used to fighting guys at. So when a guy can put weight onto his smaller frame and still see high levels of success while being heavier and slower than he's used to, going against bigger men than he's used to, it's impressive.

Canelo while he started his career at around 140 as a teenage boy, grew into 154, then 160 and then settled into 168 saying himself that he felt his best at the weight. Yes he's short and has a short reach but the dude is stocky as hell. These are weight classes not height classes. He is a naturally bigger man than Crawford, and has been able to consistently damage hurt and stop Middles, super middles,light heavies and take their best shots.

Crawford is a guy that was able to consistently make 147 and 154 in his early to late 30s. In the months leading up to the fight you might've seen how people were talking about his physique and how out of shape he looked while having to bulk up to get to Canelo's weight. Point being that Crawford when out of shape and slightly chubby weighed around (still probably less) the same weight that Canelo did AFTER a full training camp. So the idea that he was basically always the same size as Canelo and thus the win isn't that impressive, doesn't hold much water. Can anybody imagine the current 35 year old Canelo being able to cut down to 147 like Crawford did without being a walking corpse?

Crawford being a champion at 135 who moved up and became undisputed at 168 is something that is unheard of. What's more is that he did this against a P4P fighter, a proven ATG and a top 5 super middleweight of all time. Was Canelo in his prime? No, but importantly for this discussion neither were Fury and Joshua. Some say that they seemed in better form than Canelo did, but perhaps that's just because Crawford made Canelo look worse. And similar versions of Canelo were still able to send Charlo running for survival and beat capable fighters in Munguia and Ryder. So it's not like he was a complete shell of his former self. Crawford's feat is one unlikely to be replicated, not for a VERY long time atleast. Usyk's is one that was already accomplished by Holyfield and could realistically be replicated again. It wouldn't be unrealistic to say that somebody like Opetaia could collect the belts once Usyk retires if given the opportunity, but could anybody see guys like Devin Haney or Teo becoming undisputed at 168? Charlo couldn't even do it and he's bigger than Crawford.

Beyond the wins, Crawford just has a longer list of accolades. He's a 5 weight champion which might not mean what it would've meant a century ago, but even under those standards, he's gone undisputed in 3 of those weights to Usyk's two. He's one of the four undisputed 3 weight champs in the sports HISTORY (with another one of those four being Claressa shields who obviously has much worse competition) and he's the first male fighter in like 90 years to accomplish this. Obviously, Usyk simply could not have gone any higher than heavyweight and that's not his fault, but that's just one of the limits that heavies have when it comes to P4P discussions.

So I think Crawford has Usyk beat in resume and I think he has him beat in accomplishments. For me those are the two things that determine greatness. Before the win over Canelo I would've said that Usyk might take it closely. But beating Canelo with as many disadvantages as he had, and with as accomplished as Canelo is gives Crawford a major boost imo. Usyk just doesn't have a name anywhere near that on his resume, let alone a name that was still undisputed and coming off 6 straight title defenses (9 if we count the super middle defenses before he moved up and lost to Bivol).

Perhaps Unpopular, but I think a more interesting discussion is between Inoue and Usyk currently. I think the heavyweight bias (in combination with Usyk's likability) kind of makes everybody think that AJ, Fury, and Dubois are better than they are and that in turn Usyk's victories over then are greater than they are. The levels of hype and excitement around the division mean that standards are lower for what's considered impressive at heavyweight. It's why some people genuinely had Fury on their P4P lists because he beat Wilder lol. In reality are Joshua and Fury any better than a guy like Stephen Fulton? Is Dubois worth more than Tapales or is he just in a significantly more popular division?

 

Yes but you're discrediting Canelo but what about Fury what makes him so great ?

He beat an old Wladimir in one of the worst Heavyweight title fights of all time.

Went life and death with Wilder twice being on the canvas 4 times.

His only other notable wins are against a shopworn Whyte, and Chisora.

Do you see how easy that is to do ? Anyone can discredit anyone's resume it's not hard to do.

The fact is Canelo was a top 10 P4P fighter and is considered a greater fighter than Fury by a considerable distance.

Fury wouldn't even make the top 150 in regards to all time P4P rankings.

Where as Canelo would atleast be in the top 100.

Compare how many ranked fighters Canelo has beaten or how many world title wins Canelo has had compared to Fury and it would be a landslide in favour of Canelo.

To put it into perspective I can't off the top of my head remember how many ranked fighters Canelo has beaten....

But I can tell you....

Canelo has won 25 World title fights and was 10-0 in Super Middleweight title fights.

Fury has won a grand total of 5 World title fights.

Canelo in just the Super Middleweight division alone has x2 as many World title wins as Fury.

Which shows the gulf in class that Canelo has achieved way more and has been fighting at an elite level for alot longer.

 

Canelo is a heck of a campaigner, you have to give him that, fighting pro since his teens, but that record has more asterisks than anyone elses. The only time he's fought at the elite level he's either lost or drawn, and the thing about those (official) losses is he lost badly. Many gave Mayweather a better fight. Hell, Madrimov gave Crawford a better fight at 154. Canelo looked clueless at the end with the former lightweight, shaking his head, unable to switch up his tactics. No chance he bagged five rounds. He was starting to get dominated and it wasn't just down to age.

How you lose plays a part in greatness. Aside from the bitching, Fury did well against Usyk.

 

You keep saying this but again what about the context ?

Mayweather is an ATG and possibly a top 15 fighter of all time.

Bivol is arguably a top 10 Light Heavyweight of all time or not far off it this is was also not at Canelo's best weight.

Crawford is an ATG.

I don't agree with your logic at all TBH.

So because Fury lost in a better manner to Usyk that's your argument ? Despite Fury being way bigger than Usyk ?

That's like saying because Larry Holmes got blown away by Tyson but someone like Tony Tucker gave Tyson a better fight in your mind that adds to Tuckers greatness more so than Holmes ?

I'm sorry but your logic is flawed and makes absolutely 0 sense.

The fact is Canelo is a far greater fighter than Fury and all the relevant statistics support that.

 

My answer to the thread is Usyk.

My additional point is that Crawford's win, while excellent, said just as much about Canelo's level when faced with genuinely elite fighters.

 

And what about Fury's level ? He has looked far worse against B and C class fighters and has been on the canvas almost 10 times despite only fighting 4 top 10 ranked Heavyweights.

Let's see Fury consistently take on as many world class fighters as Canelo has and then let's see his record after.

Fury almost found a way to lose to the likes of Wallin and an MMA fighter.

 

Both have beaten B opposition. Crawfords beaten more. I go TC.

 

Crawford is a great fighter but the answer here is Usyk, and it isn’t particularly close.