Who would be more formidable H2H in later eras; Sullivan or Jeffries?

John L's speed, power and fighting heart were translatable to any era. All the rest would be adjustments to different rules, different refs, and perhaps a different level of professionalism.

 

I think Jeffries, he was such a formidable athlete I can see him benefiting more from modern training and medical methods, but I also think Sullivan could do well too.

 

Two of the more difficult old timers to get a real gage on ... In my opinion Sullivan was a transitionary figure between sports more than a M of Q fighter on any scale to come later. That said, by most accounts he had stamina, an iron chin, true KO power in his right hand, terrific strength and serious hand speed power .. he had raw terrific skill to be trained/molded and succeed as a cruiserweight or small heavyweight ... Jeffries' strengths in his era really dont seem to transfer as well ... he was not that big or likely that strong compared to other 215, 220 pounders like a Chuvalo per say that came later .. he dominated with his strength and stamina against smaller men for the most part and while that worked in 1900 I just don't see it translating against other equally big men. At least by what I’ve seen on film.

 

Jeffries wasn't really small. He was 227 when these photos were taken:
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Hard to say really but id go Jeffries.

 

If it's at cruiserweight, either guy would do alright with modern training and diets. They were both strong, durable guys with plenty of natural talent, stamina, and the willingness to work hard.

You'd obviously want Sullivan to be a David Tua/Chisora type developing his combinations, the ability to press the issue and get close, weave around the jab, attack the body, etc. He already had a mighty hook and right hand, so just fine tune the intangibles like his balance, timing, etc.

For Jeff, he's often described as being a bit more methodical and willing to engage at mid range, not a relentless swarmer. He could throw jabs to keep people off, fight off the back foot, counter, but at his core he still preferred breaking guys down with body shots and strong punches like uppercuts. I would have him work on the cross arm block, how to pivot off the front foot, jabbing at various ranges, and the overhand shots. Basically, follow the blue print for boxers like Tim Witherspoon and Norton with some sprinkles of Chuvalo.

So on paper, it would obviously be more straightforward and easier to train Sullivan. As for the modern HW division, I wouldn't really want either of them there due to the height and reach difference. But if I had to, I would actually pick Sullivan because he had faster hands, was more explosive to get inside, and could make taller guys uncomfortable if he starts dipping low and launching upwards at unexpected angles. His absurd stamina and work rate were also things rarely seen in today's HW scene, and these would all be x factors that could potentially earn him a strap with the right matchmaking.

 

Hi Buddy.
I am intrigued by some of your comments/remarks concerning the merits and fighting style of the boxers in question, firstly you say Sullivan would be more straightforward to train, that fly's in the face of everything I have read about him, the articles pertaining to his training and getting himself into fighting shape, all read that he hated training, and it took a monumental effort to get his normally bloated and drink sodden body into any kind of shape, it took no less a disciplinarian than William Muldoon to keep him under lock and key, to get him any remotely kind of shape to be ready for the rigours of a long and hard fight, also quite a few of the posters before your good self, have commented on his, skill, speed, fast hands, and stamina, the few stills I have seen of him " fighting " he was holding onto his opponent, so where are we getting the evidence that he was anything like descripped, and what taller guys did he make uncomfortable with his launching upwards, sorry if this comes across as a put down on your post, or disrespecting your writings, it's not meant to be I assure you, but I just don't know where Sullivan has been spoken, or written about in such terms, I honestly don't, maybe I am the embryo stage of Alzheimer's, which could explain a lot.
stay safe GCC, chat soon buddy.
respectfully, Mike Cannon.

 

Good to hear from you again, Mike. When I said easier to train, I didn't mean Sullivan was easy to work with on a daily basis. I just meant for his particular style, it was a bit more straightforward to help him adjust to the modern era if you wanted to mold him into something similar to Tua/Chisora.

As for Sullivan being lazy and not very active on film, if I recall correctly this was when he was past his prime and an alcoholic. Younger Sullivan was described as being more gung-ho and explosive.

 

Hi Buddy.
Thanks for you polite and courteous reply, I get what you mean, sometimes I can be a tad pedantic, but you know your boxing as witnessed by your interesting and informative posts that the forum has had the pleasure of reading for some time, and continue to do so.
stay safe GCC, chat soon buddy.
Mike.

 

Maybe a little bit of both.

Foot speed is one of the first things to go if a boxer starts to get old/slack off in training/eating a lot.

So while most trainers would lick their lips seeing someone like Sullivan with quick feet, hands, good power, etc, I would throw a wet blanket on those ambitions thinking long term. What happens if and when he slows down? The problem with both Sullivan and Tyson was they lacked the fundamentals to fall back on when they got older. So developing a Chisora secondary style to grind people down abd all my pressure/high volume/inside fighting would be a good investment. I'd plant the seeds for those early on while also developing the high speed combos a la Tyson.

 

It wasn't that Tyson lacked fundamentals as he got older. It's that he was a midget who relied on a unique combination of speed, balance and requisite stamina which, with age and lifestyle, betrayed him. A guy that small only has a single, very narrow route toward success. And it would never have been a long stay at the top. What he achieved was singularly amazing.

And just a reminder, Derek Chisora was bigger and even with that never achieved anywhere near the heights of Tyson. Becoming a plodding alsoran with a bit of pop is small consolation once you've been the baddest man on the planet.

 

Not throwing jabs, lacking an inside game, and getting easily clinched and pushed back were 3 crucial fundamentals he often lacked even in his prime.