Did Sugar Ray Robinson Have Any Flaws?

Ok, I'm definitely not picking up what you are putting down. If the quote did happen it would have been a lone voice at any rate.

 

To me, Robinson has 3 flaws that actually standout as things that could - and in some cases, did - lose him fights.

The first has been touched on already; Robinson's defence. It wasn't actually bad, given what he was doing and who he was doing it to; but he got tagged noticeably more than you'd expect from a guy as good as Ray. Particularly when in bad positions. However, I tend to view this as a product of a different flaw in his game, being his meticulous offensive. He had to be a in position to keep punching and so he got hit while there - Louis suffered 5/6 KDs due to it and even today, Inoue has suffered a couple of KDs and a broken orbital bone for the same reasons.

The second is a bit more broad and slightly less troublesome, but it does tie into the third issue quite a bit. Robinson often struggled with a good inside game; partly due to his long limbs and movement heavy style, but I think it was because he liked having range on his shots but also because he liked punching on the break, and punching to free his hands from the clinch. Either way, he wasn't anywhere near as elite when he was ear-to-ear or chest-to-chest with his man than when he was out at longer ranges.

The third is not a technical issue, but a stylistic one. Throughout Robinson's career, he was given issues repeatedly by one type of fighter and it was usually the shorter, stockier, hard nosed pressure fighters who were physically stronger than Robinson. Guys he couldn't impose himself on as well. He arguably lost the rematch to Marty Servo, who applied plenty of pressure. He named one of the Fritzie Zivic fights as his hardest fight. He struggled with LaMotta in their earlier fights. Arguably lost to Georgie Abrams, drew with Brimm and lost to Turpin. Drew with Basora, got bashed up by Ralph Jones, went life and death with Castellani, he lost the series with Fullmer, and he struggled massively, and lost, to Carmen Basilio. Obviously he wasn't at peak for all of these fights, nor at his best weight, but these were the guys who troubled him and it happened as a constant throughout his career.

So, did he have any flaws? Yes.

Did those flaws cost him fights? Yes.

But did those flaws stop him being the best fighter of all time? No.

 

The inside game and leverage on his shots is perfectly understandable and a natural consequence of a fighter trained to impose his height and reach advantages.

Ali, Ray, Hearns were all punished on the inside during their career.

The crazy thing about Ray is despite these flaws, he had some vicious answers to negate a fighter's approach to the inside range, that he maybe didn't utilise enough? He had the slashing right whipped around the elbows, but I think much like he walked Fullmer onto the hook, he didn't utilise his uppercuts as methodically as a Louis or a Duran to the body might.

If you had Ray and could coach him to improve his game, what would you have him do without it impacting his offensive brilliance?

 

Does Duran have the style to beat him? I think Duran style matches up quite well with Robinson actually, particularly his unparalleled inside game. Would Robinson have the natural strength advantage, speed and power to offset him ?

 

I think Ray hits significantly harder than Leonard and doesn't take as long to recover from the right hand that troubled him in Montreal.

Put it this way, there were times that Duran was toying with Leonard in there and I don't think you can do that with Robbi - his hookercuts and the combination punching as well as his ability to use the jab and pivot to keep distance and his experience stand him in good stead.

I happen to think Robbi a hybrid of Hearns and Leonard and with his height, some of the leverage advantages that Hearns enjoyed are real possibilities for me. Robbi had genuine KO power in each hand with a variety of shots.

The two punchers at LW and WW that I see having the tools to negate Roberto happen to be Ike Williams and Robbi - Hearns goes without saying.

 

Funnily enough i came across an article that referenced Ray's inside game just today.....and defense too, two things that are lesser parts of his game.

"Experience paid dividends for Robinson who effectively tied Gavilan up in knots in infighting, the Kids forte. The challenger concentrated on a body attack throughout the greater part of the battle because he was unable to get at the jaw of the rangier Robinson."

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...156,3476627&dq=gavilan+ray+robinson+cut&hl=en

 

Brilliant find.

I'm not hero worshipping but I've seen enough tape and read enough about them to know that fighters like Robbi, Ali, RJJ were talented enough to fine tune the supposed flaws in their game, if that's what they exclusively chose to focus on.

What's often not appreciated is that parts of a fighter's stylistic expression is reflection of their times, their ego and character. They're not necessarily going to do what we, from the cheap seats, want them to do in order to attain their greatness.

 

Maybe youre right.
I reckon Duran could hit Robinson more easily than Leonard but it may be a moot point.
I’m not sure I agree completely on Robinson being a hybrid of Leonard and Hearns. Did Robinson have much more of a reach than Leonard ? I don’t know. But he did have almost perfect attributes for a welter so I agree in that sense.
I think Robinson - Duran would be close, if Duran is at his best which he would be for Robinson.

 

He did have a lot of inside tricks. I didn't mean to make out he had nothing if you got inside or anything, he just wasn't as much there as he was everywhere else.

One thing Robi does against guys who do stick to him which I've always liked and stolen in my own boxing, is he'll lean down on them, pushing his weight down onto their upper back with one hand, and attack the kidneys with his other hand. He threw like weird, long, rear hooks over the top of their back and it looks like a nice little accumulative shot.

 

Top notch stuff, pal.

 

With the hybrid thing - he can box and be well-rounded like Leonard but IMO punches significantly harder - probably as hard or just a little bit lesser than Hearns, but with a more complete arsenal.

The ability to impose and maximise his size and leverage is similar to what we've seen Hearns do, but unlike Hearns, if you go to war with Robbi, you ain't stopping him on his feet. In his ability to fight through the fire, Leonard very much matches up and in Robbi beating Gavilan - I probably rate the feat higher than most.

Duran is the most skilled fighter on film that I've watched, all things considered but I think Robbi has everything in his locker to negate Roberto.

My unpopular opinion is that if Duran slacks off like he did against Leonard in any moment of the fight, Robbi KOs him. To be honest, even if Duran is fully dialled in, I still can see Robbi lining up his chin in similar fashion to Hearns and if he lands like Hearns did and Roberto rides the punch, Robbi was an infinitely better finisher than Tommy.

 

Great stuff - that right to the kidney is such a nasty shot. Freezes you right up on the spot and leaves you vulnerable for the next one.

I know what you mean - I would say he could sometimes be lazy and allow himself to be driven backwards/met and negotiated on the inside in ways that I wouldn't coach any fighter to accept/tolerate.

I do think with his fight regularity and the quality of his opponent, these elite fighters have a natural radar towards what's just enough - it might be argued that post-Doyle he very much had a tendency to just do enough. When he misjudged, you could get a Turpin performance - when it was on the line and he needed to show what he was made of, Turpin rematch.

It's a scary trait that - going up against a fighter that could turn a fight when they're in danger of losing and have that career changing power.

 

The biggest flaw I see with Robinson, and it wasnt really a flaw per se, certainly not one that lost him fights, was that he only fought as hard as you made him. He shared this with Charles and Griffith. I wouldnt say he carried fighters but he certainly was content to just fight at his own pace if not pressed. This lead to a lot of boring fights before he decided to close the show or just coast to an easy decision. I dont really see his inside game or defense being flawed until he was older and fighting much younger and stronger fighters. If his defense was really that bad he wouldnt have made it so late in his career fighting such younger fighters.

When Carmen Basilio turned pro Sugar Ray Robinson had 90 pro fights under his belt and had been fighting for 8 years as a professional. Gene Fullmer turned pro four months after Robinson defeated LaMotta for the middleweight title, Robinson had almost 130 fights at that point and had been boxing in the paid ranks for over a decade. Even when Robinson faced these fighters years later he still fought on no worse than even terms with them.

 

Regarding Robby's inside game and body punching, he ripped apart Bobby Dykes pretty quickly, and probably couldve halted the rugged WW contender inside of four rounds had he been so inclined.