Creatine Makhacev vs George St. Pierre

GSP is way more proven at WW at the moment but who even knows man, I think Islam might be the most skilled MMA fighter ever after Jon Jones.

 

How is Jones even on the same category lol. Way more skilled fighters then Jones

 

I personally consider Jon Jones to be the most talented fighter the sport has ever seen.

 

Talented is not the same as skilled.

And honestly up for debate how much of that talent comes from being huge while beating up smaller fighters and being a confirmed PED cheat. He didn't look nearly as good when he fought guys his own size and once testing got stricter.

 

I have him #1 at both.

Jon wasn't really as big as people make him out to be mass-wise, he was lean and almost skinny, he was just really tall and rangy. GSP also had more reach than literally everybody he fought with. PEDs are a bad look but I'm not gonna sit there and act as if he was the only guy that used PEDs. Nobody hates Jon more than DC, and DC pretty openly said that many fighters he faced with were on PEDs and that Jon's skills and understanding of MMA were what made him so good.

Finally, Jon's lack of motivation was what really ended him at the end of his LHW run, not size. Thiago Santos was only 6'2 and a former middleweight, yet Jon still struggled with him because he shot like 1 takedown and tried to strike with one of the most dangerous strikers of the time. Same with Reyes, he didn't start wrestling until Reyes seemed like he was on his way to win.

Jon was in his 12th year of professional MMA by this point and he accomplished pretty much everything he could have possibly done, physically and mentally he was visibly worn out compared to the days where he would suplex people to the ground and try to rip their limbs off.

 

Over Aldo, DJ, GSP, Khabib, Volk etc? I don't see it all of them are way better all around and in specific areas he never excelled at.

He was bigger then most of the fighters he fought at his best most of whom barely cut weight and would be middleweights today (Machida, Rashad, Shogun etc) whereas he could have easily made HW. He chose not to because it was a bigger risk (and Jones always hated taking risks). Not to mention when he did fight someone his size he struggled and arguably lost (Gustafsson)

Relative to his division (which has always been pretty weak tbh) sure but overall P4P no all the guys I mentioned are way better.

Who was also fighting with one knee and Jones couldn't do anything to convincingly beat him and since then has only won like one fight.

And also fighting guys he didn't have as much of a size and athletic edge over so he couldn't do that and instead had to resort to being a shitty kickboxer.

End of the day Jones was all flash and little substance at his best and when that flash went away because of testing and age he looked like medicore at best. Not at all comparable to better fighters from the lower divisions.

 

I'd favour GSP to get the job done by decision.

 

Yeah, Jon is way more well-rounded than Khabib and Aldo and he's a smarter fighter than DJ, GSP and Volk by a hair imo. Beat better fighters than them as well.

You're intentionally picking his smallest opponents (even then, all these guys would wreak havoc in today's LHW division). Ryan Bader was a big guy with solid wrestling background, Stephan Bonnar and Brandon Vera were the same size as Jones. Didn't matter one bit.

No he couldn't, as I said, Jon was tall, not big, he was built like a twig compared to actual HWs, he literally had a belly when he came up to HW. He was not, and has never been a natural HW, he is about as big as somebody like Ankalaev and smaller than somebody like Pereira.

Dude that fought Shogun Rua at 23 is afraid of taking risks?

Not really, people just don't watch that match, Jon won that pretty clearly. It was a close match but not because Gustafsson was big, its because Gustafsson was a damn good fighter. DC has a PHD in beating up bigger guys and he also struggled a lot with Gustafsson. And this is ignoring the fact that Jon demolished Gus in the rematch.

I don't think so. Smaller fighters just look better because they are faster, more coordinated and more agile due to their size.

Exactly, because as I said, he shot only one takedown the whole match and purely struck with a guy who was known for how good and powerful he was on the feet.

Except he also had a size advantage over the 6'2 Santos. And absolutely demolished and outgrappled ACTUAL wrestlers with big frames before like Ryan Bader.

This is just hate unfortunately, your arguments all boil down to "well sure he beat some legendary fighters like DC, Gustafsson, Rua but he struggled in some fights in his 12th year of MMA!!!". Go check out how the fighters you named were doing in their 12th year of MMA and then come back to me.

 

Khabib sure but Khabib was also probably the best MMA grappler ever Jones was never the best at any one aspect. Don't see the argument for Aldo. Not only is Aldo one of the best MMA strikers ever he also had probably the best takedown defense ever and had good takedown and ground game himself when he needed it he just didn't use it much. How is Jones more well rounded then that?

How is he smarter then any of them DJ was great at figuring out his opponents flaws and exploiting them same with GSP. Volk figured out and dismantled one of the greatest MMA fighters ever in Holloway when has Jones ever shown that level of gameplanning? And beat better fighters is just objectively false on average they beat much better competition then he did. The only win on par with their best wins is the 2 Cormier wins. However, DJ has the two Benavidez wins and the Cejudo win (should be two wins tbh) both of which are on par (I'd argue better) then Jones best wins. Volk has the three wins against Holloway and the Aldo win both are way better wins then Cormier. So that argument is just wrong.

They look better because they have better skills its not about size just look at guys like Ali or Usyk in boxing just as skilled as any lighter fighter. Fact of the matter is that Jones never faced the level of competition the lighter guys did.

Having a close decision with a guy on one knee isn't something to brag about lol

Who also wasn't particularly good especially not when Jones beat him lol

I'll admit i am a bit of a Jones hater but its not like I don't have good reasons for that lol. And I think my argument is pretty clear his competition is overrated he only beat one great fighter and the rest of his wins are over guys he had a huge size and athletic advantage. The moment that wasn't the case he never looked particularly good.

Lets see Aldo was still beating top contenders after moving down to a lower weight class and giving great fighters like Merab and Yan tough fights. DJ beat a very solid fighter in Adriano Moraes. Volk is currently the FW champ after clearly beating a pretty good fighter in Lopez. Holloway has a lot of very good wins beating Arnold Allen, Gaethje, and Priorer. All of that is way better then anything Jones did in his 12th year of fighting.

 

Why does that even matter?

Aldo had literally 0 grappling beyond a solid TDD. This guy lost 3 fights simply because his opponents held him against the cage and he couldn't adjust in any sort of way. No BJJ in sight either. Jon was also a good striker with solid TDD but he was also a demonic offensive wrestler, an expert BJJ fighter with excellent submissions and a nasty GnP on top. He was a complete fighter that was actually elite in every aspect of the game.

I've seen Jones adjust accordingly to his opponents way more than those guys ever did. I've seen Machida time Jon with nasty 1-2s anytime Jon threw a leg kick, only for Jon to then feint a leg kick and counter Machida's blitz with a right hand before choking him out. I've seen Gustafsson have plenty of success in the first match with his jab, then get his jab nullified by Jon's boxing adjustments in the rematch before getting wrestled down and GnP'd out. I've seen Jon constantly kick DC to the body, then feint and KO him with a headkick, despite DC outright telling Jon to not expect to KO him with a simple head kick. He's genuinely a prodigy, he's doing things like this to legit champions, some of the best fighters his division has ever seen.

Please do explain how Ray Borg, Jon Fitch and Yair Rodriguez are better than Shogun Rua. Average competition of GSP, DJ and Volk were contenders. Jon's average opponents tended to be seasoned champions.

Beating Benavidez doesn't even compare and Cejudo is 1-1 with DJ.

Aldo win definitely isn't better, Volk fought Aldo after Aldo got KO'd by Holloway and McGregor, Jones beat prime Cormier. Beating Holloway 3 times was good, but that's really the only thing Volk has on par with beating DC, the rest of their resume favours Jon.

Not really, I'd put Ali and Usyk ahead of a lot of lighter ATGs skill-wise.

He faced better, people just don't want to accept it because they rightfully don't like him.

Santos' knee looked pretty fine until Jon started kicking it. But again, this is not the point. Point is Jon had a close decision with Santos because he was burning up towards the end of his LHW run. Same guy that shot just 1 takedown against a 6'2 kickboxer was effortlessly taking down and mauling 6'2 wrestlers back in his youth.

Ah yes, the "not good" Ryan Bader who was a two-time NCAA all-american that finished in 4th place in NCAA national tournament, who also beat Rampage Jackson, Phil Davis 2x and was the HW champion of Bellator at 40.

I get that but most of what you say are just overplayed narratives that are blatantly not true. There are only two LHW matches where Jones genuinely looked bad. It was against Reyes and Santos, and you can't say it was because of size because Santos wasn't a big guy at all. He struggled with Gus because Gus was a good fighter that also gave DC hell. Then he demolished him in the rematch. He 50-45'd Glover without a sweat who was the champ in Pereira's era at 40+, choked Jan out for the title and nearly beat Jiri. He finished Ciryl Gane (6'5 250 lbs since you are so into size) in a minute. People underrated that win for the last 3 years but Gane just barely lost to Ngannou 3-2 and he's the only person Aspinall has lost a round to in god knows how many years. All these are great wins. Saying he just beat smaller fighters is incredibly simplistic.

"Top contenders" like Martinez you mean? Let's say he was robbed against Marlon Moraes, he also lost to Bautista. And its bold to say he gave "tough nights" to Merab who 30-27'd him and Yan who nearly beat him to death.

"Solid fighter" becauseeee....why? He's from one FC, he literally did nothing that actually makes him a credible, note-worthy fighter, you wouldn't even know his name if not for DJ. And need I remind you that Moraes knocked DJ's head off in their first match?

These are better stuff but I have beating Gane above all this.

I'm not even necessarily against ranking Volk and GSP above Jones, I wouldn't agree but I can see why. The problem is you are straight up being biased here and taking serious credit off of Jones.

 

That's just completely wrong having a good TDD defense means he has good grappling by definition. You're also ignoring how he completely dominated Matt Brown, a very solid wrestler, on the ground taking him down. Aldo was elite at every aspect of the game unlike Jones who never had good boxing and never knew how to deal with leg kicks he just never had to deal with someone who could exploit his flaws. Also the holding against the cage only happened when Aldo was old and fighting at elevation to conserve energy. Its not a representation of Aldo at his best watch the first Mendes fight.

Then you obviously don't know what you're watching. Adjusting to simplistic and one dimensional fighters who don't know how to deal with basic things like body kicks or stance switching is not the same as game planning and adjusting to multi dimensional fighters that all the guys I listed did. Jones never had to deal with that because of how limited LHW is as a division.

Shogun was never the same once he left Pride and had his two knee surgeries and pretty much had nothing for Jones who just bullied him around. All the guys you listed were solid contenders with solid skills Fitch had one of the longest win streaks in WW history and only lost to GSP. Yair had an unorthodox style and gave an ATG Holloway a tough fight. Borg was solid when he was motivated and in shape and beat a very good fighter in Jussier Formiga. All of them are way better then like 99% of who Jones beat. Not to even mention the more higher tier wins.

You're underestimating how good prime Benavidez was and DJ was the only person to ever knock him out when he was at his best. DJ should have won the second fight if you know anything about MMA scoring but regardless both wins are better then anything Jones has not to mention the Dodson and Horiguchi wins.

I admit Aldo was past his best but still a very good fighter when Volk beat him as he showed when he moved down to BW certainly better then Cormier. Holloway is one of the greatest fighters ever and much better then anyone Jones has ever fought or will ever fight. Volk beating him 3 times, the last completely dominating, is one of the best performances of any fighter in MMA history. Nothing Jones has done has ever come close. Please don't compare beating one dimensional guys in a shallow weight class to beating one of the best fighters ever in one of the deepest weight classes. The two are not even close.

So then we agreed size isn't a detriment on skill so therefore your original claim was wrong lol glad we cleared that up.

Yep its more so a testament to how shallow the weight class is he was never particularly good and if he fought at a lower weight class he would be lucky to be top 15 at best.

Finishing someone who looked like he never grappler in his life with a choke that any white belt would have been able to escape isn't impressive tbh nor is it more impressive then the stuff I listed.

Top contenders like Font, Vera, Munhoz he also got robbed against Bautista. Merab literally couldn't take him down and bully him like he did to everyone else till Yan. Not to mention he has an argument for winning the first two rounds.

Solid because he was a good fighter with a solid skill set who as you said beat DJ in the first fight and was competitive in the next two despite losing.

We all have our biased I'm upfront about mine but I would say my reasoning is valid. Just as you rank Jones higher because you're impressive with how he looked at his best i rank him lower because I don't particularly rank his competition highly and believe many other fighter did very similar things against much better competition.

 

Sorry but I can’t continue this with a guy who says Ray Borg is better than 99% of Jones’ wins, gotta agree to disagree on this one.

 

Facts don't care about your feelings

 

Ironic coming from a guy who openly admits he is biased lmao, cheer.