Wladimir Klitschko was no better than AJ, he just had a weaker era.

Weren’t you his biggest fan? What happened? Usyk beat him so now he’s trash?

 

If you think Joshua is on prime Klitschkos level you need brain surgery

 

Prime Wlad is what? The guy that will hold more than Lawrence the Octoboy Okolie?

 

Not as weak as Wlad's nor as the current one. Wlad/AJ/Fury etc are literal giants standing on the shoulders of smaller, better men. They'd probably admit it, in confidence.

 

Man you must of hated seeing Muhammad Ali fights.

 

He was empirically much better and had a weaker era.

 

Fighters like Pov, Chagaev, Byrd and Haye are closer to AJ than he is to Wlad. A shot Wlad knocked down AJ and IIRC was up a point before the stoppage... Horrendous take. AJ would have piled a lot more losses if he had Wlad's schedule who also didn't take fights against Youtubers or MMA debutants.

 

Come off it. Wlad at 42 had AJ on bambi legs, a prime version executes him.

Think of it this way, would Wlad ever lose to Andy Ruiz?

EDIT: 41, not 42 my bad.

 

This. An old Wlad came within a hair of knocking out a prime AJ. Take a few years off him and he'd have landed that leaping left hook and finished AJ off easily.

 

Wlads opposition isn't any smaller than the 70s or 80s.

 

Before the 5th He was doing better at long range but basically nothing significant. Not like he was jabbing his head off or anything.

Yes. But the disadvantages that he had because he was not in his prime were what allowed Wlad a window of major success. Older Joshua probably could've ended the fight in the 5th. Younger Wlad most likely would've won had he been in place of his 41 year old self. But in this instance I'm talking about how a prime Joshua likely would've dispatched of old Wlad with significantly less trouble, and thus using that fight as the end all be all deciding factor is shaky.

Wlad did better against a better Pulev yeah, largely because he hit harder than Joshua as I've mentioned. Not like Joshua struggled with Pulev or something, he outboxed him and dropped him multiple times for a late stoppage.

Wlad has a better resume yes, largely due to its depth, but does he even have a singular win as good as Joshua's over old Wlad himself? Did he actually beat anyone that was a better fighter than Joshua? Byrd was more skilled but too small. Peter was strong but too crude. Povetkin maybe but he doesn't possess the same kind of size Joshua has.

There's a pretty big jump between Dillian Whyte and even a 41 Year old Klitschko.

Joshua was the favourite and rightfully so, usually youth does prevail over experience. But experience does matter and can make a difference. Klitschko had been a champion for longer than Joshua had been a boxing at all.

Wlad knew how to handle being hurt better because he'd been hurt countless times before. He knew how to better deal with fighting on such a big stage, knew how to better pace himself, how to create certain openings and spot certain traps, etc. usually a younger fighter can just go in there and impose their athleticism over the older man, and this is what happened in the fifth but then experience or rather inexperience came into play when Joshua blew his load and Wlad seized the opportunity.

He wouldn't need to outbox old Wlad OR young Wlad, would just need to knock him out which is achievable as evidenced by Joshua actually knocking out old Wlad and young Wlad being hurt and dropped by much less accomplished fighters than Joshua. He isn't a pure outside boxer puncher like Wlad was, So naturally his skills in that aspect were not as well developed as Wlad's, but Joshua was better at mid to close range than Wlad ever was.

Agree about discipline, atleast mentally, and that was part of my original point. Both guys have never turned up out of shape physically, but Joshua mentally has struggled to show up in peak fight condition for more than a few fights at a time. Wlad managed to overcome his similar issues of confidence and self belief (though never entirely) to reign for a long time, Joshua did not.

And I'd say the Helenius fight came when Joshua was mentally shot. Atleast against punchers like Helenius and Dubois. He fought scared and although he managed to get the knockout, looked terrified of being touched at all. In his earlier fights he was generally much more willing to engage and be gung-ho (Ruiz 2 and kind of Usyk 1 being the exception)

Improved on his jab, varied it more, fought more patiently and with a tighter defense, improved on his counterpunching ability, got better with his shot selection and with putting shots together. Even look at the 1st Ruiz fight. The initial shot that drops Ruiz is not really the kind of thing you'd see him throw pre Wlad. He was messier and sloppier.

His skills improved even further after Ruiz but yes he declined mentally following that fight.

He was cautious compared to how he used to fight but he still wasn't THAT cautious. take the Pulev fight. He waited till he saw opportunities to land big shots and when he did he followed up with the same aggression that he always had, at mid and close range. Difference was just that he was less likely to force it. But he was just as explosive an athlete as he ever was, had much better stamina and was more skilled. When both men were fresh in their fight Wlad did not manage to significantly outbox a considerably less skilled and more cumbersome version of Joshua. His major success in outboxing Joshua came when Joshua was hurt and gassed, which is less likely to be the case with any version of Joshua post Wlad. Before that point of the fight, Joshua was outworking him up close and doing fine at long range.

So Chances are a post Ruiz Joshua and old Wlad box on even terms for a bit with very little of note happening, then Joshua lands a counter or powershot, pounces on Wlad and ends the fight.

Difference here is that against Usyk he gassed after a tough 9 rounds, and in the 9th he managed to sustain a longer assault and held his form better than was the case against Wlad in 2017, where mind you Joshua was already starting to look fatigued by the 4th round.

If you'd just said Parker I could understand but Pulev? He pretty easily out jabbed Pulev the entire fight. Hell, his jab looked improved and more accurate in almost every fight after Parker with the only exceptions being in fights where he barely threw it like against Usyk, Wallin, and Dubois. I also don't understand why you place much emphasis on Joshua needing to outbox Wlad, old or young. There are guys in history who I wouldn't pick to outbox young or old Wlad who I'd say are better fighters than him and would pick to knock him senseless lol. It's not the only way to win against him and all but one of his losses came against guys who just knocked him out, despite being worse pure boxers.

Because I feel it's kind of irrelevant to the topic. As I've said, talking so much about their 2017 fight is not a rock solid way to see who wins prime for prime or how big a gap in ability there is with both at their bests, because while Wlad although well preserved and highly motivated was very much past his best, Joshua had not reached his peak in terms of his overall ability and would go on to make adjustments to his game that likely would've made the 2017 match a significantly easier one for him had he made them earlier. In response to the thread I'm thinking about the similarities and differences in Joshua and Wlad and and the gap in their ability, both against eachother and just in general. Their fight can be taken into account but it's just not the end all be all, so discussing it so much feels pointless. Yes old Wlad almost beat a younger and closer to prime Joshua. Yes he might've managed a victory with Manny Steward yelling at him to finish Joshua. But again chances are Joshua from even just 1 or 2 fights later does not put himself in that position in the first place and ends up stopping Wlad with much less trouble.

And just in general, beyond Joshua not being at his absolute best in that fight, I don't think those kind of fights are enough to judge prime for prime matches. A lot of guys fight to the level of their opponent and so if faced with a prime version of an older man they'd struggled to beat, would just elevate their performance to match the prime opponent. Even though Evander Holyfield was given a tough match by old Foreman I still think he'd stop young Foreman. Prime Lennox Lewis struggled with a past prime Holyfield in their rematch but prime for prime I still think Lennox wins a series against him. Larry Holmes struggled with an older Ken Norton but I still think prime for prime Holmes wins.

 

You say peak joshua would beat Wlad in the 5th. Why ? Joshua did not improve by any significant margin post Wlad until he changed his style post Ruiz, which also comes with its can of worms. Perhaps the reason joshua looked so bad against Klitschko was because Klitschko

Circular logic but please continue.

You suggest Wlad didn't beat anyone as good as aj, yet joshuas claim to elite status is beating a senile Wlad whom he barely scraped by. Byrd would beat aj. Peter would soak up all those power shots before bullying and knocking aj out. Ibrigamov and Tony Thompson are skilled southpaws that joshua would find difficult to tame. Eddie Chambers is leagues above Jermaine Franklin and would give aj problems. David Haye is stylistically all wrong for joshua and would likely blast him. Prime Povetkin is deleting his chin.

Wladimirs resume is too deep and we know for a fact 3 of joshuas top 7 wins are worn out contenders from the Klitschko era, adding more credence to Wlads resume. It's not close they are at least 15 spaces apart on the atg list.

Exactly, there is a gap between Whyte and 41 year old Klitschko, just like there is a gap between 41 year old Klitschko and literally everyone else on johsuas resume outside of Usyk.

Has aj ever beaten a prime power puncher ?

Wladimir is somehow joshuas best win but apparently 27 yo aj wasn't at his peak against Wlad and entered his prime a couple fights later, only to struggle with an aged Povetkin, have a competitive fight with an old Takam, get knocked out by Ruiz and get traumatized hard enough to lose his confidence, change up his approach and run away from an even more out of shape Ruiz, yet somehow joshuas was actually at his peak against Oleksandr Usyk despite being "mentally shot" post Ruiz, only to go back to being "mentally shot" post Usyk. It's funny stuff. For all bad performances that just wasn't prime aj huh

After this guy dominated Wallin people claimed he was back and looked great. He was the favourite against Dubois despite Dubois having the much better run. Even joshuas own team said he was performing better than ever in training, only for him to get massacred and boom, the narrative shifts to him being completely shot in an instant.

You want to know whats starking about this ? Dubois was the same age that joshua was against Wladimir, 27. Joshua was still 34 and didn't look any different in his last 3 fights

 

His jab had no extention against Parker and Helanius and in regards to Ruiz, there was similar punch selection against Takam. He showed better agility and stamina, that's pretty much it. The Helanius fight is direct proof joshua did not really improve his technical skills or his jab, because Helanius was just not a contender at that point yet his size and rangy style was still a problem. Ruiz is a short fat slob who knocked him out in the first fight and showed up 20 pounds overweight in the rematch. Povetkin was 40 and joshua still had trouble separating himself til he gassed. This is the same Povetkin that was down on the cards against Whyte until he timed him with that perfect shot, he was on his last legs.

It's much easier to do that against a 39 year old Pulev compared to even a 41 year old Klitschko so the logic checks out. Notice how both are past their peak

He pounced on him in round 5. He dropped him. Wlad was seriously hurt. Why didn't aj end the fight there ? He was landing plenty of devastating shots. joshua is also more likely to get caught trying to box Wladimir than the other way around, we saw it. Wlad is too cautious for any fight ending counter punches to be realistic.

He gassed after throwing the kitchen sink. Maintaining a high pace is different from unleashing as many punches as you can in a short period of time, which we know joshua will do if he fails to find any success at range.

Pulev was 39 and 1 year out the ring. Pulev was so shot he lost to an ancient chisora whom he beat easily when Chisora was in his prime. Joshua despite being a lesser boxer than Wlad SHOULD have done better, but he couldn't.

He cannot outbox any version of Wlad post Steward and his survival skills are utter crap.

Joshua would NEED to put himself in that position to get the stoppage. The reality is a 27 year old prime joshua could not outbox Wlad. Since he couldn't outbox Wlad or be comfortable at long range, he needed to drag him into a dog fight. That's exactly what he did, but he couldn't get Wlad out of there despite landing every punch in the book, and then he gassed. A more disciplined aj is not going to get Wladimir out of there, it just gives Wlad more time and space to find a clinch, move away and or maintain ranged attacks and stay up on the cards. Joshua would always have to attempt to run Wlad over to beat him and risk opening himself up like he tried against Usyk even if he doesn't gas, otherwise he loses the chess game and gets sparked out.

That Klitschko fight is very relevant. Logically it shouldn't be seen any other way. The overrating of joshua is why he fell short of expectations and that perception clearly still lives on. The more contenders he'd have fought the more losses he'd have. Prime joshua is not good enough to clear Kabayel, Zhang, Sanchez, Joyce, Wardley, Hrgovic, Hunter, Wilder, even if allowed to rematch. Klitschko is a level or 2 above

 

He won the second fight with a one punch ko the same way Rahman won the first so what was the difference? He either like you said mastered everything that Steward taught him for both fights or he hadn’t mastered everything he taught him at all

 

The same exact version of Lewis is not going to show up every fight when he was known for overconfidence issues, which is the pure mental, not the technique. I don't remember Steward teaching Lewis to be less prone to overconfidence, do you ??