Why is Ray Robinson NOT the number 1 p4p fighter?

There are a few things wrong with this post.

Firstly, LaMotta was not the only MW champion SRR has a positive record against. He went 4-0 versus Bobo Olsen & also beat Rocky Graziano in their only contest, both of whom were lineal MW champions.

Secondly, he did not duck the whole murders row. He fought, and beat, Aaron Wade.

Thirdly, he did not duck Ezzard Charles. By the time SRR became MW champion, Charles had not only departed MW for good, he'd also permanently departed LHW & was the reigning HW champion of the world. The last time Charles weighed within 160lbs was in 1942, around the time SRR was transitioning from a LW to a WW. They never fought in the same division at the same time.

Finally, when assessing his MW record, it appears you've fallen into the common trap of only looking at his world title fights. Even as WW champion, SRR had contested more bouts at MW than he had at WW. Before his loss to Turpin, aged 30, SRR was 67-1-2 in bouts contested at MW. He retired with a MW record of 70-2-2. He avenged both defeats, including going 5-1 with LaMotta. Only after a 3-year lay off, aged 33 & beyond, did Robinson, a WW at his best, who was by then well past his past, coming off an absence as long as Ali's, begin to win some and lose some versus the best MWs of the era.

 

Well he maxed out at 175.. whereas Greb beat LHW greats like Tunney, Loughran, Gibbons, Norfolk.. & HWs like Smith & Brennan.. despite being about 5'8 & never much more than 170lbs... Ray was 5'11 with a much longer reach.. a bit lighter generally but overall had size advantages over Greb.

Then you factor in Grebs eyesight issues & other well documented health problems its quite incredible what he achieved in light of those.. Greb is #1 for me. Put it this way.. would SRR go through Grebs resume like Greb did.. the answer is no.

Grebs stats & range of opposition in terms of diversity of styles, size differentials & skill level is unmatched. Beat more Hall of Famers than any other fighter.. and then there's that famous year..

I'm in a minority I prefer both Greb & Ezzard Charles over Sugar Ray Robinson as America's greatest fighters..

 

Looking at his 199 fights, about half of them were against novices or journeymen with losing records or less than 1 or 20 fights. They were stay-busy fights and not at all competitive. That's not to say he didn't have some great wins against LaMotta, Basilio, Fullmer, Gavilan, and a few other solid fighters. He checks a lot of boxes for greatness though...longevity, never knocked out on his back, great chin, all around boxing skills, speed, stamina. Definitely a top 5 ATG, but I have trouble calling any fighter #1.

 

As somebody who has him at #5 or #4 P4P all time, I think he often gets a little overrated based on just how dazzlingly good he looked on film.

He has an incredible resume but comparing it to guys like Greb, Langford, and Charles I just don't think it's enough to pass them up. I go back and fourth between him and Armstrong in my rankings, which might be controversial since he's usually ranked solidly above him but resume wise I think it's debatable between them, and accomplishments wise Armstrong managed to do something Robinson did not in being a 3 weight champ.

 

I'd really like to see the 15 that leaves out Robinson.

 

Well you've got the whole Classic forum interested, drop the top 15!

 

Chronologically

Bob Fitzsimmons
Self explanatory


Harry greb
Self explanatory


Micky walker
Mainly for his weight jumps and resume at welterweight and middleweight

Gene tunney
Beat greb 3 times (allegedly) avenging his only loss, beat dempsey twice, retired as the man in both divisions

Jimmy mclarnin
Most underrated fighter of all time, beat villa, ross, canzoneri and couple other ATG, absolute legend


Henry Armstrong
Self explanatory


Ezzard charles
Self explanatory


Carlos monzon
Elite wins, long reign and aside from some knockdowns he looked unbeatable as the champion


Roberto duran
4 division world champion, best lightweight OAT, beat prime SRL at his best weight class, almost beat hagler at his peak, outclassed palomino, marcel, cuevas, moore and EDJ (3rd fight), beat barkley (a 3 division world champion who captured the title of KO'ing hearns) at 38 years old, fought in 9 weight classes and 5 decades


Ray Leonard
This is self explanatory lol


Julio cesar chavez
3 division world champion Beat around 17-19 world champions, undefeated taylor, rosario, camacho, has the most title fight wins and title defences in boxing history, most coming against top 5 contenders


Roy jones jr (barely making it)
4 division world champion, beat undefeated toney, an old McCallum along with other couple names, reason he's here was his dominant prime and him winning tte heavyweight title


Pernell whitaker (barely making it too)
4 division world champion, best wins chavez and nelson, he's here mainly for his skillset and the chavez fight


Manny pacquiao
8 division world champion, beat barrera, marquez, morales, cotto, ODLH, was a world champion in 4 different decades, 5 times welterweight champion and the oldest one


Floyd mayweather
5 division world champion, 22 champions beaten, best wins pacquiao, cotto, ODLH, canelo

This makes robinson possibly outside the top 18-20 now that i think about it

 

Chronologically

Bob Fitzsimmons
Self explanatory


Harry greb
Self explanatory


Micky walker
Mainly for his weight jumps and resume at welterweight and middleweight

Gene tunney
Beat greb 3 times (allegedly) avenging his only loss, beat dempsey twice, retired as the man in both divisions

Jimmy mclarnin
Most underrated fighter of all time, beat villa, ross, canzoneri and couple other ATG, absolute legend


Henry Armstrong
Self explanatory


Ezzard charles
Self explanatory


Carlos monzon
Elite wins, long reign and aside from some knockdowns he looked unbeatable as the champion


Roberto duran
4 division world champion, best lightweight OAT, beat prime SRL at his best weight class, almost beat hagler at his peak, outclassed palomino, marcel, cuevas, moore and EDJ (3rd fight), beat barkley (a 3 division world champion who captured the title of KO'ing hearns) at 38 years old, fought in 9 weight classes and 5 decades


Ray Leonard
This is self explanatory lol


Julio cesar chavez
3 division world champion Beat around 17-19 world champions, undefeated taylor, rosario, camacho, has the most title fight wins and title defences in boxing history, most coming against top 5 contenders


Roy jones jr (barely making it)
4 division world champion, beat undefeated toney, an old McCallum along with other couple names, reason he's here was his dominant prime and him winning tte heavyweight title


Pernell whitaker (barely making it too)
4 division world champion, best wins chavez and nelson, he's here mainly for his skillset and the chavez fight


Manny pacquiao
8 division world champion, beat barrera, marquez, morales, cotto, ODLH, was a world champion in 4 different decades, 5 times welterweight champion and the oldest one


Floyd mayweather
5 division world champion, 22 champions beaten, best wins pacquiao, cotto, ODLH, canelo

This makes robinson possibly outside the top 18-20 now that i think about it

 

Thanks for posting. Obviously not your everyday top 15, and pretty far off from one that I would put together, but it's horses for courses.

One thing that we are in agreement on is that it is, indeed, a list

 

Interesting list. I dont feel Robinson is the #1 p4p fighter of all time. Many people just bow to consensus and follow the crowd here. I rank Greb, Langford, Pep, Duran, Armstrong and probably Fitzsimmons higher.

 

Gene Tunney over Robinson? Sure, bud.

Thanks for playing.

 

For me Robinson, Duran, Armstrong and Greb are all as good an answer as any

 

It was the Monzon, Pernell, Roy Jones and JCC ones for me. Great fighters but certainly a tier or two below Sucre.

You simply cannot call Floyd, Pac - any of them 6/7/8 division champs. If there were four/five world champ titles during Ray's era and there were all these super junior airy fairy weight classes then Robbi would have likely held world titles at 135, 140, 147, 154, 160, 168 and possibly tried again for the 175 title.

It's completely disingenuous to call a man a 4 weight champion when he's gone up one of the traditional 8 weight classes, especially when it's to argue credentials over the likes of Fitz and Armstrong.

 

Hey man all the love in the world for the boxers this guy named i'm a fan of each and every one of, but Sweet P, Chavez and Tunney are NEVER going over Ray Robinson, NEVER, the mental gymnastics and possible bias towards the others you've got to pull to put them even ONE SPOT ABOVE WALKER SMITH are GARGANTUAN

 

I can't see Robinson NOT being in the top 10, makes no sense to me.