Frazier's career without Ali

Scenario 1- still loses to Foreman. Frazier had nothing to hurt George with other than his left hook and Foreman never appeared vulnerable to the hook.

Foreman will still be able to push and shove Joe at will, catch him with uppercuts coming in, hurt him with long range right hooks and left hands. Nothing Joe can do.

Scenario 2 - Frazier probably fights for the title a bit earlier but ends up losing to Foreman.

Young beating Foreman isn't likely if Foreman doesn't worry about his stamina. Foreman of Ziare probably stops Young.

There is a slim chance that someone like Holmes defeats Foreman in 1978 but by then, Joe would have been to old for Holmes.

 

He would be considered a more primitive version of Floyd Patterson, one of the weaker world champions with a rather weak jaw but a powerful punch.

 

Why? He won his first title in 1968 and became the undisputed champion in 1970. Ali came back after he did that.

 

There were talks about matching Frazier and Ali in 1967 before Ali's exile. Yank Durham, Frazier's trainer, felt Joe was too green to go up against Ali in 1967.

If there is no Ali, Durham might push for Frazier to fight for the title earlier in 1967. It depends on how faded Liston would be to be fair. If Liston faded a lot between 65-66 without Ali, Durham might be comfortable pushing Frazier to fight the aging Liston in 1967.

 

Frazier was a great champ but if his road leads to Foreman then it always ends there.

 

another question would be: what if Foreman never discovered boxing?

 

100% truth! Foreman would always be Joe's kryptonite!

 

Frazier is just outside my top ten now ,so nothing much changes for me.With no punishing fights with Ali ,he may well be a factor longer,but he isn't beating Foreman anyway.

 

His road might lead to Jose Roman

 

His career turns out pretty much the same but minus the big legacy win over Ali.

 

Frazier would still be a Gold Medalist and he would dominate for a period of time late 60's perhaps 1967 through 1972 or 73. Until he fought Foreman.
Fans would not view him with as much reverence without the Ali fights.

 

I've given some thought to the division without Ali. Certainly Frazier would be champion regardless, and Foreman would beat him in any timeline. But an "Ali-less" division would be fascinating, because of all the contenders and champions of the era not having to face him.

For Frazier, I foresee a similar early career, including the close call with Bonavena. I see him as a clear favorite to sweep the contenders in the title elimination matches held in Ali's exile. He might have difficulty with Williams, Chuvalo, Machen, Folley, Mildenberger, Jones, Liston, and Patterson (I'll get to Patterson and Liston in a bit), but I favour him to beat them comfortably. Frazier likely smokes the mid to late 60s in a similar manner as he did in real life. Of course, a rampaging Foreman would end his first (but likely not his last) championship reign. I wouldn't be surprised at a few upsets, split decisions, and/or robberies in this time frame too.

Now, the real question marks for me would be Patterson and Liston in this time frame. In real life, Patterson's post-title career is criminally underappreciated. His record on paper is spotty, yes, but his performance against the top shelf opposition of the mid to late 60s was admirable for an aging former champion off two devastating losses to Liston. In this hypothetical, Patterson doesn't suffer the two Ali losses, and I predict this would further extend his already impressive longevity. Does this mean he stands a chance against Frazier? Maybe not, but he would certainly put in a good effort. It would be a clash of Patterson's skill and experience versus Frazier's pressure and youth.

Liston without Ali is even more interesting. After smashing Patterson twice, Liston might have an actual title reign - the division in the mid to late 60s wasn't exactly Murderer's Row. It was a transitional period between the Liston/Machen/Folley era and the Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton one. Liston likely clears out the division despite his age, until age eventually catches up to him, as it did in the Martin fight. Though in this scenario his level of competition post-Patterson would be higher, I'm confident that he still has a decent run, as I'm unsure if anyone at the time stands a good chance against him. Depending on when (or if) Liston and Frazier fight, I can see a trilogy, with the eventual passing of the torch to the younger and hungrier fighter. Liston could even go through the rest of the 60s undefeated in the best case scenario and retire, leaving the division wide open, and a similar scenario with the title elimination bouts would play out, with Frazier likely coming out on top.

A final thought experiment: what about Norton, Lyle, and Shavers? Though Frazier and Norton were sparring partners and friends, they would likely have to fight without Ali. I could foresee them holding a part of the heavyweight crown each but never meeting too, similar to the Wlad era. But in the case of them facing off, I see another trilogy. Contrary to popular belief, Norton is not allergic to punchers - he did avenge the early loss to Garcia, couldn't stand up to a true ATG in Foreman, and got smoked by Shavers and Cooney when he was well past it. No shame in that. Norton and Frazier being sparring partners means that they are familiar with countering each other's styles. I am not saying that I would favour Norton per se, just that like Liston, he has a chance of handing Frazier his first loss. His career in real life can attest to his quality.

Lyle is an interesting factor. He starts off boxing late in life due to prison, yet his career is extremely impressive. Despite losses to Quarry, Ali, Foreman, and Young, his early career was very good, quite similar to Frazier's in fact. His wins over Middleton and Shavers are commendable. He outboxed the crap out of Ali until Ali woke up. His highlight, clearly, is the war with Foreman, where he demonstrated uncommon toughness, strength, and power. Lyle would be an interesting opponent for Frazier. For me, Frazier would be facing a challenge similar to Foreman in terms of this matchup. I predict a bloody war with the match dead even. Prime Lyle was a dangerous, dangerous opponent.

If Shavers doesn't take out Frazier early, Frazier smokes him, though like the fight with Lyle, the fight's outcome could well depend on the time they fought. Shavers in the Ali fight was arguably his best performance - some people claim that Shavers should have gotten the nod, and I can see the argument for it.

The final "what if" for me goes, fittingly, back to Frazier's career without Ali. The Ali trilogy broke Frazier, cutting short his prime. Without the 1971 fight, Frazier would be open to the contenders of the early to mid 70s. The 70s would be dangerous for him. Not only due to the fighters mentioned above (who wouldn't have to face Ali too), not only because Frazier would have been 7 years into a damaging pro career, not only because Frazier's almost suicidal pressure style would land him in hot water sooner or later, but the final nail in the coffin: Larry Holmes. Holmes has the jab and range to box Frazier silly, the right hand to stagger him, an actual uppercut unlike Ali, and if Frazier scores a knockdown, Holmes will rise up from the dead like in Shavers 2 and carry on whupping him.

 

Ali really didn't get in Fraziers way. Alis exile and the first win bought him 5 full years and 10 fights as champ. Something none of the other 70s greats got. So Frazier didn't really have bad timing.


The rematch was for the NABF and if he'd won Frazier rematches Foreman earlier. If Frazier wins the rematch Ali might still get the title shot at Foreman on virtue of being a new opponent.

If Frazier wins the trilogy his next fight would still be the Foreman rematch just for the world title not for the NABF. If he avoids Foreman hes got to deal with Norton, Jimmy Young, Lyle and Shavers.

Frazier was seconds from winning the trilogy and did enough to win because Ali wasn't coming out for the last round. If he got that win it doesn't transfer Alis Foreman win or the rest of Ali reign to Frazier. Even without a Foreman rematch the more durable Ali was lucky to run the table against Jimmy Young, Lyle, Norton and Shavers.

 

Ahhh, now we’re going into some kind of 12 Monkeys territory of those time travel movies where changing one tiny thing can cause ripples that throw the future out of whack.

If there’s no Ali … is there a Larry Holmes to contend with for an era?

As we know, Holmes cut his teeth as Muhammad Ali’s sparring partner. Those countless hours together sparring andI camp shaped and molded Larry to be the fighter he became.

Without Ali, I’d say we’re look at a 50/50 chance we get Holmes as a force, at best.

Upon turning pro, Holmes was fighting for peanuts in Scranton PA after losing to Duane Bobick in ignominious fashion in the Olympic Trials. Nobody believed in him and nobody was looking to sign him. He had the proverbial one-way ticket to Palookaville.

Larry caught the eye of Richie Giachetti — one of Don King’s henchmen trainers — first when the trekked to iirc NYC with his original trainer to spar and he went three good, hard rounds with Earnie Shavers. At that time, King was managing rather than promoting and Shavers was the star of his stable. King had enlisted Giachetti to train Earnie.

But Richie was impressed with Holmes even though others like King henchman Al Braverman were not. He kept nagging Don to sign Larry and he eventually did, using him to fill out undercard roles on his bigger shows and placing him on small shows for like $150. All that sparring with Ali paid off, and Larry got better and better and fought on some of The Greatest’s undercards in what began to be more showcase positions.

Larry did spar with Shavers a good bit and got a big opportunity to be a chief sparring partner for Joe Frazier when Ali didn’t need him for the second Frazier fight — Larry’s style of course bearing no resemblance to Joe’s but a good deal of resemblance to Ali’s, so Joe brought him in.

As Ali and Frazier begin to sunset their time at the top, Larry began to emerge and had his statement win over Earnie in their first fight to set up his title shot.

But if there’s no Ali, does Kingreally become The Man in boxing promotional circles? And if not, does Holmes (even without sparring with Ali) get his chances?

On the one hand, the cream always rises to the top. On the other, sparring so much with The Greatest surely sharpened Holmes’ iron and gave him undercard opportunities.

I’m going to go with Holmes still rises under this scenario. He had the goods and King is too ambitious to not become a promotional force by hook or crook. He did showcase Larry in his iill-fated (ratings-fixed) U.S. tournament on ABC, so I figure that still leads to him getting the Shavers fight and shining … and going forward from there.