Johnny Nelson sets record straigt on Naz & Ingle

I think you misunderstand the word vocation. It’s not voluntary, I’m meaning it’s their dedicated job. Like being a plumber or sparky etc. you get a wage for your services. It’s not a get rich scheme.

I think an issue is you keep mentioning being a lackey as a coach or teacher. This is your chosen job/vocation. It is a common issue in society today, where people choose a job, dedicate themselves and then feel disgruntled as they are not millionaires regardless of being taken care of. Was this the beginning of the entitled society?

in 1997, the average salary was under £17k a year, Naz was paying well over 100x that so Ingle was not struggling. This is not proof of coaching not paying good enough. Guys like Davidson have come into boxing for the money. Before, they did it for passion. So I think you’re making my point with the money. Gyms do not cost millions to run

Is your suggestion that a coach should sign an agreement with everyone he teaches to say he is a 25% shareholder in all future earnings? Especially young kids like 7 year olds?

 

Exactly, that 25% cut idea for every kid (even 7-year-olds) is exploitation and borderline grooming. It locks in vulnerable children before they can understand the implications, turning genuine mentorship into a predatory business transaction from day one. We see parallels in football, where agents scout and tout young talent to clubs, taking percentages of future earnings and profiting off potential with zero upfront risk. While the academy system and tighter agent rules have reduced some overt exploitation, it hasn’t eliminated it. Much has shifted into grey areas, such as “advising” families or early commercial deals.

Ingle-style pro/am gyms operated differently to other gyms. They were real businesses, not not-for-profit community clubs, and were often funded by their champions in a self-sustaining cycle. Herol Graham’s success bankrolled the generation that produced Naz; Hamed’s earnings then supported multiple waves thereafter. This hybrid setup delivered huge advantages. Naz trained with pros from age 7, first amateur fight at 11, pro by 18.

But it didn’t manufacture another Naz. He was a one-off prodigy, Rooney-level in football, exceptional raw talent plus early immersion. The sudden fame, money, and pressure can derail even the best. Replicating that level is rare. It’s not just the system, it’s the individual spark.

Galahad was their most recent world champ, but his awkward, defensive style was high-risk/low-reward, so fighters routinely swerved him. Great setups help, but genius remains one-off. And I doubt Barry’s cut, or modern trainers’ and promoters’ percentages, 25 % or not are recycling enough to build the next Wincobank generation the way a genuine superstar’s earnings once did.

 

How much you reckon a gym costs to run a year?

 

If

If the average salary was 17 grand and ingle was really on 100 times that salary... naseem was on 300 times that salary a year...on top of that keeping all sponsorship money etc. What made that 300 times that salary possible was the expertise passed on over many years. The many many hours of commitment giving up to prepare naseem to earn that 300 times a normal persons salary. Pretty much all the ingles as well. Preparing naseem for fights....travelling up and down the country losing money to get him to that position and doing it with all the other fighters as well. The entitlement is from the guy earning 300 times that 17k salary.

Your saying Ben Davidsons around for the money. Why wouldnt he be in your system. Why would your system not encourage guys like ben davidson. The system is you take kids and put your life into training them. All your family. Countless hours per week. Go up and down the country with each of them preparing them for pro fights for peanuts. Then if your lucky enough to have one of the very few that start to make money we,ll take them off you.

The main reason Bens had success is because most gyms just coach as amatuers a couple of nights a week. They know the drill. Their further commitment is really for the benefit of Ben Davidson. The promoters etc.

The ingles fully commited. Put their life into it. Went above and beyond for thousands of kids. Bearing in mind very very few fighters make money in boxing....it was never about the money. But if you do happen to make some off the back of their expertise....their time and commitment. Pay a comparable figure of them earnings back into the system. Its a fair system weather your 7 or 70.

Again Ben Davidson would have been laughed out of gyms. The fighters themselves are picking him tho because the amatuer coaches only do it as a hobby. Mainly because they know the drill. The chances of taking a kid through is a waste of your time and commitment because it will end up being to the reward of the next guy thats done absolutely nothing of that dedication/comittment etc. Its pretty much a broken system that allows everyone but the guy thats spent his life training and producing you to make money off the lackeys hard work.

 

How can it really be explotation if you only get any real money if the one thats being exploited earns millions off the back of your expertise, your time and massive commitment. If the one being exploited doesnt make any money they owe nothing. The exploitee picks up the tab for years. Provides a place to train. Passes on their expertise hour after hour. Gives a massive commitment week after week. Not just Brendan but the whole family. Providing pro training for absolute peanuts. Preparing him for pro fights for absolute peanuts. Travelling to mansfield, sunderland, wembley, dublin and many more places sitting on undercards for peanuts.

Not comparable in the slightest to football agents that tout you name for a percentage. No expertise in getting the player good enough. No massive commitment. Not providing training camps etc for peanuts. Pretty much the complete opposite of the ingle gym.

 

Mate, the fact we’re even talking about making “real money” later off kids you brought through the amateur days shows the intention from the outset. A kid can’t consent to being treated like a future revenue stream.

Naz was a one-off prodigy, Rooney-like, basically training like a pro from 7 and years ahead of the curve. By 18 he could’ve gone straight into British title level, and he proved the gap by outclassing a European champion in his 12th fight, a guy who later gave Spencer Oliver a proper run.

And Brendan openly talked about Naz making £40m and him taking £10m off the back of it from the amateur days. That’s exactly why the setup wasn’t liked in amateur circles, the Wincobank pro/am model gave a massive unfair advantage.

If it was purely about “helping kids,” you’d run a separate amateur branch in a separate location as a not-for-profit like most clubs. They didn’t, because it was a business model. And the reason Wincobank isn’t pulling the same numbers now is the model needed a cash cow to subsidise the rest. Same dynamic you saw with Frampton’s purses propping up the McGuigans’ outfit, and part of why Carl ended up taking them to court.

And the split really kicked off around the book, a book that only existed because Brendan was willing to dish dirt on Naz. He did what he did, and Naz repaid it in kind by dropping him, because he couldn’t handle being exposed.

But by then Naz was already doing what he wanted in the gym and nobody was telling him no, because everyone knew his value. Same dynamic you saw with Tyson pre-and, post-D’Amato, when the discipline goes and the “asset” starts calling the shots and people around him get pushed out, ala Teddy Atlas.

That’s the wider issue. Once his talent, not Brendan’s, shone through, Naz was treated like cash-flow. When the star becomes the business model, the structure bends around him, and that’s usually when it all starts to unravel.

 

Obviously there are many variables, it’s like asking how long a piece of string is.

But I have helped run a few boxing gyms and during that era 90’s they often run on £5 a week or under iirc per member. These days gyms were “rocky style” but fully equipped, barely heating and a few coaches. Gyms were packed. Fights and external sparring was regular and everyone was happy. The mentorship present created an affinity with many people.

 

Real coaches do it for passion.
These poor coaches have come from
Gym instructors for money. They didn’t come before as there wasn’t millions in it, you got a wage.

so what if Naz got more, he is the fighter, he takes the punches, the risk and the long term injuries. His fighting profile is his only source of income and he still has all his expenses to deduct from it.
Ingle had income from every person walking in his gym. if Ingle was responsible for it all he would have created many Naz type earners, but instead he had Jonny, junior and hero who didn’t bring in money. Naz was the special one out of the thousand who have been through the gym.

This is the life of a teacher or mentor. You pass expertise on to help and enjoy seeing your protege grow. Not simply for an investment.

 

Brilliant post.

Who does Dom even train these days?

 

It would be illegal and there have been many scandals similar like this in the past but not as blatant. It’s grooming and exploiting vulnerable people, which is why it’s not done like you say. It would never hold up in a court.

being the highest paid trainer in the world, earning 100x the average salary is not peanuts. He’s a multi millionaire because of Naz.

if this supposed verbal agreement did happen, who represented Naz when he accepted this? A 7 year old is not legally allowed to sign contracts without a parent or legal guardian.

Honestly, the more this thread has gone the more I feel sorry for Naz. Was he groomed and exploited?

 

Heard a good saying from Paul Smith the other week. The minute you become the best fighter in a gym, leave and go somewhere else, because you’ll lose motivation.

 

Excellent post

 

Fair enough but you, like most of us have no real idea then

 

it was a very generic question so it’s impossible to answer. Size, how many members, own or rent building, what equipment, amateur or pro, showers and changing rooms? What era etc.

I just explained what they could run for;

Boxing gyms in the 90’s did not require millions to run. Less than £300 a week did the main job. Obviously to run a professional training camp etc for a fighter costs more and paying for sparring or travelling etc, but that’s not paid by the gym, the comes out of the fighters wage.

 

As a regular visitor to the peacock in the mid to late 90s, 300 quid wasn't doing a thing

I mean it's all kinda irrelevant tbh
Is it exploitation? To a degree sure, it absolutely is

But breaking it down it's no different from how our Government exploits us for profit by "training" us for life in society

Unfortunately everyone is out to get what they can