If Wilder KO's Usyk, is he one of the greatest heavyweights of all time?

Now that's a quote.

 

Deontay Wilder already has 10 successful heavyweight title defenses and was WBC Heavyweight Champion for five years, including successful defenses against the undefeated Tyson Fury and the undefeated Luis Ortiz.

If you add KO win over the undefeated pound-for-pound world heavyweight champion Usyk, which would make Wilder the second-oldest man to win the championship (only behind Foreman), Wilder would have one of the greatest heavyweight resumes this century.

He'd be 11-2-1 in 14 heavyweight title fights.

With a KO win over Undefeated Luis Ortiz. A KO win over the undefeated pound-for-pound Usyk. A two-knockdown, successful defense against the undefeated just-turned-30 Tyson Fury (who was a FAR better version of Fury than Usyk ever fought). That's a lot of high-profile O's to take on in heavyweight title fights and still leave the ring with the belts.

No other heavyweight champion this century has KOed a pound-for-pound #1/undefeatad Heavyweight Champion who was younger than they were.

Certainly, none of the others you mentioned did.

Also, Leon Spinks had zero successful defenses. Douglas had zero successful defenses. Moorer had two successful defenses (Botha and Bean) in his second reign. Rahman had one successful defense in his second reign (which was a draw with former middleweight Toney).

Wilder already has more than THREE times as many successful defenses as Spinks, Rahman, Moorer and Douglas COMBINED.

He's also already a historic figure at heavyweight. And a KO win over the undefeated, #1 pound-for-pound heavyweight Champion to become the second-oldest champion ever .... would be an even greater win than Foreman's over Moorer.

Moorer wasn't considered the Pound-for-pound number-one fighter. And Wilder won't have a 25-pound weight advantage over Usyk, like George did over Moorer.

If they fight, it's gonna happen.

 

He was an alphabet title holder that did everything he could to avoid the other top guys. He cleanly lost to Fury 3 times, the judges gave him a gift draw because anyone with eyes had Wilder losing that first fight. The fact you can only name ancient Ortiz (who again, controversially Wilder was saved from being stopped), and a gift draw vs Fury across those 5 years proves my point.

Then he would have 1 legitimate win over a top heavyweight, thats why I made the compairson because it's the same. His paper reign does not matter for anything because he beat no one, turned down unification fights, and LOST to any credible fighter.

Ortiz beat no one of note and was pushing 40. Successful defense? He got a GIFT draw against a formerly fat Fury. Do you even watch boxing?

Wilder isn't a heavyweight champion, he's a fraud who fought the B level fighters and struggled. He was protected in the ring and out of it - and when his value waned and he was forced to fight dangerous fighters, he started losing.

You mean Douglas KO'ing an undefeated Mike Tyson didn't?

All of them won the lineal title though. Which counts for far more than holding an alphabet title whilst avoiding every legitimate fighter in the division.

How many of those are lineal or even unified?

No it wouldn't, A he isn't winning and B, Usyk is OLDER than him.

 

Usyk (born in 1987) is younger than Wilder (born in 1985).

None of the guys you mentioned (Leon, Rahman, Moorer, Douglas) made a successful defense of any title. Making 10 successful WBC title defenses is better than making zero successful defenses of a couple belts.

If Wilder fights Usyk for the title ... to go along with fighting Fury (three times) for the title ... to go along with fighting Luis Ortiz (twice) for the title ... and fighting Joseph Parker in a non-title fight ...

The very tired "he avoided the other top guys" argument will (and already does) ring a little hollow.

Beating Usyk and running his heavyweight title record to 11-2-1 in 14 heavyweight title fights would be next to impossible to rationally dismiss.

You'd have to be a blind hater to continue avoiding it.

 

Because, like Sven Ottke before him, they didn't have the luxury of being able to pick up a belt and fight the who's who of the bottom rungs of the division.Furthermore, all four of those fighters won the LINEAL title, and thus all of them have better wins than Wilder has ever had.

You are hinging his entire record of legitimacy on losing to Fury 3 times, twice by KO. And getting a controversial win and 1 legit win vs an old Ortiz.

He literally did not fight Joshua 2017, despite being offered 100mil. Which other top contenders did he fight as a paper belt holder?

Again, he managed to get a belt then defended it against the very worst fighters he could have. Even Fury was, at the timie, considered a cherry pick given how much time he'd had out, and the state of him prior to that first fight. He then went on to get outboxed for 90% of the fight and recieved a gift draw.

I don't hate Wilder, he's fine -he has done really nothing for him to be considered great. You'd have to be a delusional fanboy of his to think otherwise.

 

To make it easier for you @Dubblechin , I will break down the top 10 each year that Wilder was "champion".

2015

The Top Heavyweights of 2015 (Bad Left Hook Year-End List):

1. Tyson Fury: Claimed the top spot after upsetting Klitschko in November.
2. Wladimir Klitschko: The long-time king, dethroned by Fury.
3. Alexander Povetkin: A formidable contender with strong wins.
4. Deontay Wilder: The powerful WBC champion, a major force.
5. Luis Ortiz: A rising Cuban star making a significant impact.
6. Kubrat Pulev: A strong challenger who lost to Klitschko earlier in the year.
7. Ruslan Chagaev: Held the WBA (Regular) title for part of the year.
8. Bryant Jennings: A solid fighter who challenged Klitschko in early 2015.
9. Carlos Takam: A durable and respected contender.
10. Bermane Stiverne: A former WBC champion who lost his title in early 2015.

2016

Tyson Fury, Champion

1. Wladimir Klitschko
2. Deontay Wilder
3. Kubrat Pulev
4. Luis Ortiz
5. Anthony Joshua
6. Joseph Parker
7. Bermane Stiverne
8. David Haye
9. Andy Ruiz Jr.
10. Dillian Whyte

Which top 10 did he fight this year?

2017

Tyson Fury, Champion

1. Anthony Joshua
2. Deontay Wilder
3. Joseph Parker
4. Alexander Povetkin
5. Luis Ortiz
6. Kubrat Pulev
7. Andy Ruiz Jr.
8. Dillian Whyte
9. Dominic Breazeale
10. Jarrell Miller

Which top 10 did he fight this year?

Title Vacant

1. Anthony Joshua
2. Tyson Fury - gift draw, really an L
3. Deontay Wilder
4. Dillian Whyte
5. Luis Ortiz - controversial win
6. Alexander Povetkin
7. Joseph Parker
8. Jarrell Miller
9. Adam Kownacki
10. Kubrat Pulev

2019
Title Vacant

1. Tyson Fury
2. Deontay Wilder
3. Anthony Joshua
4. Dillian Whyte
5. Luis Ortiz
6. Andy Ruiz Jr.
7. Alexander Povetkin
8. Joseph Parker
9. Michael Hunter
10. Adam Kownacki

Which of the top 10 did he fight this year?

See, it's no blind hate. He may have picked up a title, but he avoided anyone of note aside from the two guys you keep mentioning. So he absolutley belongs with Rahman, Spinks, Douglas and Ruiz. I'd actually rate Douglas and Rahman higher than Wilder given both were ative at the top for a while and, both have legit wins against lineal champs.

 

Here's a further comparison to the 5 years in the run up to Rahman fighting Lewis.

1997
Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ray Mercer
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. George Foreman
7. Shannon Briggs
8. Ike Ibeabuchi
9. David Tua
10. David Izon

Unplaced

1998
Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Grant
4. Michael Moorer
5. Shannon Briggs
6. Chris Byrd
7. Ike Ibeabuchi
8. David Tua - Lost here
9. Andrew Golota
10. Hasim Rahman

Placed inside the top 10, fought top 10 opposition.

1999
Title Vacant

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Evander Holyfield
3. Michael Grant
4. Ike Ibeabuchi
5. David Tua
6. Mike Tyson
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. Andrew Golota
9. Derrick Jefferson
10. Oleg Maskaev - L

2000
Title Vacant

1. Lennox Lewis*
2. Mike Tyson
3. Kirk Johnson
4. Evander Holyfield
5. David Tua
6. Wladimir Klitschko
7. Oleg Maskaev
8. Michael Grant
9. Hasim Rahman
10. Chris Byrd

Placed, wins over Corrie Sanders, who was just outside the top 10.

2001

Lennox Lewis, Champion x2

1. Wladimir Klitschko
2. Mike Tyson
3. Chris Byrd
4. Hasim Rahman
5. Kirk Johnson
6. Evander Holyfield
7. John Ruiz
8. Jameel McCline
9. Fres Oquendo
10. David Tua

So even Rahman, fought the same level of competition, in a more competetive era, than Wilder did. Remove the WBC part, and he had a compairble career to Douglas, Rahman.

 

Dude, if Deontay Wilder knocks out the number-one pound-for-pound fighter and undefeated world heavyweight champion ... something NO ONE you mentioned did ...

To go along with the 10 successful WBC heavyweight title defenses he's already banked ...

And he becomes the second-oldest lineal heavyweight champion in history ...

And he goes 11-2-1 in heavyweight title fights ...

Having faced three of the top undefeated heavyweights his era (Usyk, Fury, Ortiz) in heavyweight title fights and walking out of the ring those nights as champion ....

It's a big deal.

An all-time big deal.

That's what THIS thread is about.

There are countless Wilder-bashing threads on here going back 10 years. And you seem to want to desperately argue that he lost all three to Fury. He didn't. HE FLOORED FURY TWICE AND SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED HIS TITLE FOR THE EIGHTH TIME against Fury. Wilder defended it successfully two more times after that, before losing to Fury the SECOND TIME he defended against Fury in his freaking 11th title defense. And you want to argue he never fought anyone, when it appears he's going to end up fighting Usyk, Fury three times, Ortiz twice, Parker ... those are arguably four of the five or six top heavyweights of the previous era. But we're not arguing any of that.

This THREAD is what happens if he knocks out Usyk.

And he just has to win his 50th pro fight.

One win to go ... against Usyk.

And he's a bigger deal than just about all of them.

 

I don’t want to get involved in this beef as it’s already been done many times over.

But, what on earth is “Bad left hook year end list”? Having spent a lifetime involved in boxing I’ve never heard of this body.

why do supposed “proper” boxing fans use informal ranking systems to criticise formal champions?

I remember during wilders reign loads used to post a Tithe rankings. Basically you show your lack of objective reasoning when you use ranking systems that have no relevance.

A WBC champ, must fight within the WBC organisational rules and rankings.

 

Badleft hook is a boxing forum, it came up first when I googled the rankings and was in the best format. The ring rankings are used for all of the others.

 

How did you score the first Fury fight? Let's see your card.

Again, he won a title from Stiverne and avoided all of the top fighters over 5 years. If douglas beat Tucker and then spent five years defending the IBF against fighters outside the top 10, would he be considered great? Wilder lost to Fury 3 times, and Parker, Zhang - yes the point of the thread is what if he beats Usyk, wherein I made the comparison to other former 1 hit wonders who also had relatively successful careers around the top of the division. When I made that comparison, you claimed this was wrong and so started ths debate. Surprised I am needing to give you this reminder.

 

Thank you. I was looking at that post late at night, and I was like "what the hell is a Bad Left Hook Year-end list?"

 

Wilder wasn't a one-hit wonder. He was ranked among the top three contenders or higher by Ring Magazine every month, 12 months a year, for eight straight years. (January 2015 to December 2023).

Name ANY other heavyweight this century or LAST who was ranked that high every month by Ring for EIGHT FREAKING YEARS STRAIGHT? Leon Spinks sure as hell wasn't. Neither was Douglas, or Rahman or Moorer.

Wilder was the WBC champion for Five Years. He is tied for the 10th longest reign in heavyweight history, he's rated in the top five ALL-TIME in most successful heavyweight title defenses in a row.

He was involved in 13 heavyweight title fights in his career to date, losing TWO. And the second loss he scored to knockdowns over the reigning champ Fury and it was the goddamn Fight of the Year.

How the hell does that make him a one-hit wonder?

And if he KOs the POUND-FOR-POUND UNDEFEATED WORLD HEAV/YWEIGHT CHAMP Usyk, you can add second-oldest man to win the World Heavyweight Title to his already long list of accomplishments.

And you're comparing him to Leon Spinks? Or to four guys who only have three successful defenses (against Botha, a majority decision against Vaughn Bean and a draw with Toney) between ALL four of them combined?

You're just trolling.

I can't wait for Usyk-Wilder. I hope it comes off.

 

You're putting way too much into "Heavyweight title fights" - he held the WBC but beat no other top 5 fighters. This is the same arguing with Sven Ottkes fan base, you know who was rated highly throughout his entire career? He has 22 WORLD TITLE FIGHTS! By your logic, surely he is an ATG right? Like Sven Ottke, and Lucian Bute, Wilder got a peice of the crown and never did anything of note with it until Ortiz.

As you've only specifically requested heavyyweights; Alexander Povetkin, Floyd Patterson, Zara Folley, Joseph Parker, Max Schmelling, Kubrat Pulev, Anthony Joshua to name some at heayweight outside of the ATG elites (Patterson is possibly the exception here) that have had 8+ years in a row ranked inside the top 10.

He belongs in this class of heavweights, which is outside of what I would consider all time great heavyweights. His "title reign" is a paper title win, and the same as Lucian Bute, and Sven Ottke levels of wins for the most part. In your eyes, if Wilder did not pick up a title, would you still consider his run of opponenets atg worthy?

It's all fine to pick up a title, but I am a big believer in beating the man at heavyweight, which Wilder has never done and rarely attempted. He did have 3 good losing efforts to Fury (again, no scorecard from you), but how can anyone rate someone highly for losing?

I don't hate Wilder, I think he is a fine enough heavyweight and one of the biggest overachievers of the modern era. In terms of level, he is somewhere around the likes of the above named heavyweights. I won't give someone heavyweight title win credit for defending against low level opposition, just like I won't rate Sven Ottkes reign.

If you remove the title out of it, then his record reads similarly to the likes of Rahmans, and Douglas - some good wins against okay fighters, but as they stepped up, it's mostly losses.

 

You are putting ZERO into winning heavyweight title fights because it blows up your argument.

In fact, your argument keeps changing. You called him a fraud who never fought anyone, now you like him and he's an overachiever.

You said he was a one-hit wonder, and I pointed out he was ranked in the top three Ring contenders or higher every month, 12 months a year, for eight straight years.

So, you come back with a handful of names who DIDN'T achieve that ... like that's a counter argument. NOT coming up with a name isn't a counter argument.

I said he was ranked among the top 10 heavyweights all time in number of consecutive successful title defenses and top five in length of his title reign ... which he is ... and you say I'm putting "too much" into winning heavyweight title fights?

SINCE WHEN did winning heavyweight title fights become not a thing? Holding the title for five years, fighting in 13 heavyweight title fights and only losing two certainly seems better when you're talking about every OTHER FIGHTER WHO EVER EXISTED than winning the title one night and losing it six months later in your first defense.

Why do guys with the most heavyweight title fights sit at the top of the all-time heavyweight lists?

You say he lost three times to Fury when he actually floored Fury twice and successfully defended against Fury in his eighth title defense, then made two more successful defenses after that, before he defended his title for the 11th time, when he lost the rematch to Fury.

Now you're saying he didn't fight any top five fighters, when we can see the list you posted of your own customized ratings and see that's false.

Between 2015 and 2020, using your crappy ratings (I did a search), Wilder fought five of your top 10 Bad Left Hook contenders.

Five in five years isn't bad in this era, considering he also signed to fight Povetkin in 2016 and Ortiz in 2017, and both failed drug tests. (If they didn't, he'd have seven in five years.)

At least he didn't sit on his ass and just sign to fight one ranked guy a year ... like most do now ... and nobody else. At least he kept busy and made the sport exciting.

I compared him with Joshua, and using YOUR list, it took Joshua TWO REIGNS (2016-2019 and 2019 to 2022) to fight FIVE Bad Left Hook contenders.

Using your own ratings you brought here to embarrass Wilder ... Joshua didn't fight any ranked contenders in 2016, 2017, 2020.

He had two fights with ranked fighters in 2018, two (both against Ruiz) in 2019, and one against Usyk in 2021.

So, even using your "customized" ratings to make Wilder look bad, Deontay has as many fights with contenders in one reign as Joshua did in two.

And fans have said for years Joshua fought the most top guys. Not according to your "expert ratings."

Wilder has already fought in 13 heavyweight title fights. He's lost two. He was champ for five years. He is already in the record books for being among the top 10 all time in most consecutive successful defenses and in the top five all-time for longest reign.

You need to catch up. Your take is ALL WRONG ... because Wilder is already in the record books for being one of the most successful heavyweight champions ever in a couple categories.

KOing Usyk would be the icing on the cake.