Better P4P Fighter - Naz or Froch?

Hamed was an underachiever, IMO, and the greater natural talent. Froch an overachiever who made up for it with grit, determination and an iron chin.
Naz (at his best) was more talented. Froch had the better career.

 

I agree Naz got way worse as the money and fame hit. That stuff doesn’t change you, it just turns the volume up on what’s already there, as Denzel said, it magnifies both the opportunities and the problems. And I’m sure some other great philosopher even made an album about it.

But the roots run deeper than “he got big headed”. Brendan was conditioning him from a kid, building that “stick with me, you’ll be world champ, we’ll both make millions” mindset for years, and it created a narc-codependent dynamic. Early on Brendan held the power and Naz was the kid, borderline grooming/control vibes, then once the belts and money arrived it flipped, not a 360 but a 180, same pattern with the power reversed.

When Naz jumped ship in 98 over the deal/money, he didn’t break the cycle, he rebuilt it, bigger bubble, brothers and yes-men enabling harder. Barrera stuck a pin in it, and Naz just tried to reinflate the ego with the next dependency to fill the void. And if the argument is “the star should fund the system forever”, Brendan also made serious money out of that system, yet Wincobank never really evolved into something scalable or ring-fenced like a proper amateur/charity setup that could survive without a superstar. Dominic has even said in interviews Brendan “groomed” him and his brothers into the gym/boxing to take over when they weren’t really interested at first, his word, which kind of fits the same wider theme.

 

For me it gets a bit silly talking about grooming etc mate. Groomed him to be a world champion when the alleged groomers a boxing coach. Hardly a crime.

The gym should have been funded by the success stories. But greed gets in the way. I still say the 25 percent is fair. The 25 percent got bigger as they went along....but so did the 75 percent to the point the guy that got the 75 percent would have made 50 million plus regardless. At what point is it enough and without the guy getting the 25 per cent theres no 75 percent.

The stories been told a million times before tho. Now we,re at the point no one really wants to be the Brendan anymore. Even the Ingles dont want to be Brendan and in the end boxing suffers...the success stories get smaller and the talent diminishes and fewer people are in a position to prepare people for a career in professional boxing.

As people have always said you dont play at boxing. If you want to be a world champion...you have to be prepared in a sport that could end in brain damage. Brendan done his part of the deal as a boxing coach. Put in the necessary time etc.

Now we have guys that coach as a hobby. Give the best they can....way and above what a hobby should be. But the reality is if its not run as a business model like the ingles kind of did...your limited. The big question is should you really be limited preparing fighters for a career in professional boxing.

 

Bro, “grooming” was Dominic’s word to describe what his dad did with him and his brothers, not my terminology.

And I wouldn’t underplay exploitation, conditioning and grooming by sporting coaches around kids either, especially when there’s immense talent involved, it’s a lot more prominent than people like to admit. Whole Netflix series have been made around it and loads of top athletes have written books and spoken out about it.

I guess Naz should be grateful it only cost him 25%. If Don King had got anywhere near him as a kid, Brendan would’ve been ousted and replaced with someone on a salary, and Naz would’ve ended up signing a blank contract.

 

The reality of it is tho...when nazeem lost ingles "grooming" he found out you cant play at boxing. He stopped training by a lot of accounts and ended up getting took apart by barrera. People cant really have the argument both ways.

When Dom used the word grooming he meant it in a positive way. Ingle groomed naz to be a boxing star. He groomed him to be a boxing champion and to be a decent human being. He was a boxing coach afterall. It was that last one that he failed in. Brendan,s biggest and only real mistake was he allowed the third to slip because he was accomplishing the first two. It wasnt through lack of trying on that third one tho.

I like how naz has came back in recent years tbh. A bit more humble etc. Life itself ended up doing what Brendan couldnt in the end.

 

boxberry has his agenda, it is obvious dominic ingle had not put deep thought into that wording, hes a boxing trainer ffs what he meant was nurturing and mentoring but his vocabulary didnt allow him to say what he was thinking its simple as that ffs, you summed it up well bbjc your posts have been really good in these threads thanks for taking the time to post some sense

 

Slow day mate? At least that dyslexia seems to have cured itself and you haven't got the dumb**** head on today.

And listen, I'm sure it's all innocent, like the song… wait, what if there’s an explanation for this ****? What, she tripped, fell, and landed on his dick?

 

Great post. Hard to argue against that tbh....the only argument i could make is naz started around 1992 and left boxing in 2002. Frochs career begins in 2002. I might be completely wrong in this but i,d say around the time safety etc became more regarded. Sparring became more controlled etc. I know naz didnt spar all that much but guys like say medina and kelley/barrera etc without knowing...we,re probably built into what they we,re....before safety was at the forefront. Much more sparring etc. They learned to fight by a lot of hard sparring.

The amatuer gyms we,re packed. There was less money about and poorer hungrier people competing at amatuer level than say when froch was an amatuer in the 90,s. Medina/kelley/barrera would have probably been kicking about gyms in the late 70,s early 80,s. A much harder enviroment than the guys froch ended up beating. For me that hard enviroment made better fighters even tho the guys froch beat we,re higher up the rankings.

An argument could be made sport science etc made up for it and the lack of sparring actually preserved them better. I m not so sure tho overall...a lot of gyms in the 70,s/80,s had a lot of boxing knowledge kicking about and the hard sparring although stupid in hindsight benefitted them as fighters at least until it caught up with them anyway.

Who knows tho. Probably something that no one can really say with any kind of certainty.

 

angry bloke

write right write wrong both harassed, making light of disabilities lost in life mate

 

Appreciated mate. Glad to see someones in agreement anyway.

 

Keep rolling mate, Dorothy’s waiting. I’m sure by the end of the yellow brick road it’ll all be Mageed’s fault anyway, and the Ingles are just innocents like Shaggy.

 

I was too young to watch Naz in his heyday so take my opinion with a pinch of salt; maybe you had to see Naz in the here and now to really appreciate him. But my opinion of Froch and Hamed are that of two polar opposites; in my view Naz possessed exquisite natural talent, but when that talent wasn't enough to overcome the obstacle in front of him he wilted. Conversely Froch was talented athletically (at least in terms of stamina and power), with reasonable skill at the world level, but put in a situation where he was outboxed or outskilled Froch would transcend his limitations to come through. Even in the instances he lost (Ward and Kessler I) he fought until the very end; for example if the Ward fight was a fifteen rounder I think the end result could have possibly been different. Overall, whilst Froch was the lesser talent he applied that talent more effectively than Naz, and in terms of record and legacy I regard him in higher esteem.