If you watch Ali interviews from the 60s and then as early as maybe 72/73, it's quite clear that there's a notable difference in the speed of his speech. I recall someone noted it - can't remember who, but I'm sure Hauser referenced it.
Another great post, totally lost on the guy with the most ironic of usernames. Hopefully, this wasn’t too long for him too.
How exactly does speed negate a 4-inch reach advantage and Wlad's elite distance management? Fast-moving fighters like Haye, Chambers, and Jennings all had speed and movement, yet none of them could "take the authority" out of Wlad's lead hand. The issue isn't just the jab, it's Wlad’s ability to control his opponent with his lead hand and measure them. He forces you to burn energy just to get into range, and the second you get too close for comfort, he clinches and leans his 245lb frame on you. How does reflexive speed negate any of that? I actually rewatched the Terrell fight specifically for this. Ali didn’t deal with the jab, he dealt with a guy who had a jab but no follow-up. Terrell used his jab to close the distance to work inside, which played right into Ali’s hands. Wladimir is the opposite he uses the jab to keep you at long range and make you uncomfortable. If Ali struggled to cleanly negate a jab from a mediocre fighter like Terrell, it’s a massive stretch to claim he’d be able to do the same with Wladimir’s ATG jab. So you think that only pressure fighters like Frazier present tough style for Ali to deal with? You do realize that’s a pretty narrow-minded way to view boxing. Ali was a rhythm-based distance fighter, a style that keeps him at a range where he’s being hit but can't hit back is the definition of a problematic matchup. To suggest that because Ali struggled with one style (pressure), he would be immune to another shows a lack of critical thinking. You're essentially saying "Ali is Ali, so he wins against anything that isn't pressure" which isn't analysis, it's fan-fiction
There is a study where the researchers concluded that Ali showed signs of Parkinson's already in the early 70's, so you're probably right.
A long post which you’ve replied to? How odd. Now you can tell us why we can’t use the Fury fight for analysis.
Nowhere have I said most of what you assert I've said. You have this thing about reading one statement, assuming a whole heap of other things. Ali's speed and movement was more elaborate than any of the fighters you mention so it's similar but not an exact copy. I clearly said the most problematic style is the swarmers, which is the premise of the thread. I also said that Wlad has plenty of tools to trouble Ali but using quicker shorter fighters that close the distance who fight nothing like Wlad doesn't really represent the stylistic factors that play out if they were to fight. Wlad's distance negotiation isn't as elite as Ali's or Usyk's and even then, we are talking about elite fighters - 4 inches can absolutely be negated when your radar, reflex and headmovement is elite. You see relaxed, smaller fighters slip and out time larger but slower fighters in every boxing gym. A fight between the two could never be as simple as Ali can't deal with a jab, is shorter, has a smaller reach etc
More knowledge dropped on a casual. The only thing that he’s a master of, is quoting things that you’ve never said. A real gift to the forum.
Ali was champ and favored against Leon Spinks Nobody uses it against him in hypothetical h2h matchups
I’m not assuming anything I’m just following the stylistic implications of what you’re describing. And historically, speed and movement haven’t been shown to neutralize Wlad’s lead hand control. Haye, Chambers, and Jennings all tried to outmaneuver him and still couldn’t consistently get inside. So simply being faster doesn’t automatically solve the range problem. Wlad’s distance management is literally the foundation of his entire style. If it wasn’t elite, he doesn’t dominate the division for a decade with such a limited offensive arsenal. His jab, framing, and clinch are what made him effective. And at the elite level, small physical advantages matter far more than they do in a gym. Four inches of reach and a 40-pound clinch advantage aren’t things you just slip away from because you're faster, they dictate where the fight takes place and if Wlad controls the range, Ali can’t consistently get inside to work. I’m not saying Ali can’t deal with a jab. I’m saying he never showed he could consistently deal with someone who combines Wlad’s size, range control, and clinch game. That’s a different stylistic problem than pressure fighters, but it’s still a problem and one that Ali has never shown he can deal with.
No one care windbag go back to your retirement home where someone might actually listen to your incoherent ramblings.
Ali wouldn’t even have taken those kinds of fights in the modern era. And we were talking more of the Berbick and Holmes fights. A point where his tank was empty, and he was just fighting due to ego and money. Fights that Dundee desperately tried to talk him out of. Wlad was still a great HW when he fought Tyson Fury. Still ‘The Man’ of the division. Where he’d just knocked out a guy who Master rated. Then after Fury, he put in another great performance against AJ, where with different tactics, he could have won. So they were completely different circumstances. A Spinks, Berbick or Holmes version of Ali, has no relevance here. But a 2015 Wlad is very relevant, as he was still a great HW in great form at that point. Tyson didn’t win because Wlad was shot. He won due to his confidence, his style and his attributes. The reason why Master won’t use the fight for analysis, is simply because it showed a huge weakness for Wlad, both inside and outside of the ring. Psychologically and physically. Tyson psyched him out, and feinted him all throughout the fight, where Wlad couldn’t and wouldn’t use his jab or fight aggressively, even against an inexperienced HW with no real firepower. Ali could have replicated much of what Tyson did.
Another duck. How utterly embarrsssing for you. You literally can’t even answer a simple question. Why can’t we use the Fury fight for analysis?? Now if can’t even answer that, I’d leave the thread and hide.
Nah, you've assumed but it's cool. So, Ali never showed he can deal with someone with Wlad's size, distance control and clinch game? Wlad's clinch game is right out of the school of Terrell - he's not a HW Duran - Ali isn't a novice in the ring or in the clinch and understands leverage well, hence how he was able to negotiate Liston and Foreman when needed. I could argue that Wlad has never shown that he can deal with someone who combined the psychological, feinting and movement coordination of a Tyson Fury who doesn't move as well as Ali and talks a good game but doesn't exploit prefight and midfight psychology like Ali did. I could argue that Wlad has never shown that he could deal with someone the size of a Super Valuev. Completely different tiers of fighter mind you, but again, I don't think the stylistic playout is as simple A is bigger, rangier and heavier than B, when B is quicker, more proven against elite competition and has a proven ability to find a way to win in adversity. I'm not even arguing Ali beats Wlad cos he's Ali, I'm just saying Wlad doesn't beat Ali based on Jones or Norton's jab and style as his jab and style is completely different to theirs. His jab is much more akin to Liston, Foreman and Terrell than a Jones and Norton and Ali took away Liston's jab and made Terrell's jab a non-factor. Please don't mistake me for someone who does loads of back and forth or entertains lowering the tone. If the response is Ali never dealt with a Wlad - he also never dealt with a Tua or a Briggs or a number of later fighters. Tyson also never dealt with a Wlad, but it wouldn't surprise me to see prime Mike clean his clock inside 3 or 4 rounds. In any hypothetical with the greats, my first premise is it's always a 15 round fight, Mercante reffing and I don't automatically favour the older fighter. Wlad has no elite prime ATG fighters on his résumé and truth be told, arguably doesn't even likely represent as real a danger that his brother represents to an Ali. Wlad's consistency is to be commended but his reign isn't comparable to Louis' or even Holmes in some ways, not when the other best man in the division is your brother and the belts are splintered and the division is comparatively poor against previous eras. When it comes to taking on the very best of the best, I'd probably have more faith in Vitali to stay composed and not have to worry about engine or his chin.