Yeah, tbh, I can't be assed to continue back and forths in this thread. Remember when I was younger, before my kids, and I would be happy to break down the video, by clip and frame - them days are long gone, mate. Sh1t ain't changed here in 20 years.
What do you expect the guy to throw non-stop punches for a full 3 minutes? He controlled distance by a variety of techniques: 1) Offense (Jabs, Right Hands & Left Hooks) 2) Defense (Dodging punches and Holding). People want to criticize his chin, but you are probably going to see more and more top HWs get knocked down in the future because they are stronger and faster than they were decades ago.
Heart isn't only about dog fights though even though that's part of it. You could say Wlad turning his career around after those early losses required heart and he certainly showed heart against AJ in particular and in fact he was never down for the count in any of his knockdowns and obviously he won against Peter and Williamson being down as well. I agree he didn't have the same fighting instincts of other great fighters in part due to not having the best chin but there was definitely a fighting heart.
Wow. Congratulations. This is now officially the worst post of the entire thread. This makes Master look like an elite historian.
Pretending late 30's is the same in the modern era as it was in the 70's is another of the cringeworthy takes that frequently comes up in these discussions. In this case even regarding someone who was diseased at this age and likely had been for years. It is a weird thing to see
Yes, he would do very well in Holmes' and Tyson's eras. He would do well in the 90's, too. Lennox is obviously a tough fight because he does have the size, skill and power to knockout Wlad. But Lennox wasn't in any rush to fight Wlad and it probably would be difficult for him as well.
This is a very reasonable position to take. I would temper him having heart. It's brave to get up from a knockout and go back out there, but when distinguishing between the absolute best of the greats, heart is usually reserved for the fighters that are prepared to sacrifice their health to achieve greatness. The ones happy to risk their chin for leverage or to see through a game plan. What Wlad displayed in the ring is not in the same ilk as what other greats suffered. His style is caution to the level of he fears for his chin - this is not heart, this is intelligence borne out of acknowledgment of his own frailties.
I'm pretty sure i didn't state that Wlad lacked heart. The two sentence paragraph you pulled the word from also highlighted Ali's ATG chin. Wlad certainly didn't have that intangible and it's an important one. Do you disagree he didn't have to upheave his style in order to build more security around his weak chin? With a Lennox Lewis we can see loads of examples of him taking huge punches and taking them well. He too shored up his style a bit but he still had that aggression and killer instinct and if he was forced to he'd go to war like he did against Mercer and Vitali. Wlad didn't have that chip, or at least not until he threw some caution to the wind in his last fight. He did get knocked out too. Not having that chip in his prime renders one big potential avenue to winning a tough fight non existent. It admittedly made him much tougher to beat when facing far lesser fighters where as a few of them pole axed him prior. Heart is also being willing to lay it on the line against the odds. Risking all to give oneself a chance of winning a fight that otherwise will not be won. Did he do that against Fury? Hell no. It's maddening that a guy with so much power would not. The trouble is that chin, the worry that it might be taken advantage of in the blink of an eye. He was always wary of covering for it. A guy like Thomas Hearns was not. He knew he could be hurt and even stopped but damned if he wasn't going to back his big guns against yours if he had to. He knocked out opponents that had him in trouble at times. When compared to the best of the best Wald does lack some intangibles. He lacks durability (it's impressive that he was able to overcome this for so many years, but we know it took some great work by he and Steward) and the ability to put everything on the line. The first dictated the second.
If guys were getting close enough to force him to clinch all the time, then that means he wasn't good at controlling the distance. They didn't call grabimir clinchko for no reason. When he fought Jennings , the new york state athletic commission went to his dressing room before the fight to tell him the huggy bear tactics he used in Germany wouldn't be allowed in Madison Square garden. He still ended up getting a point deducted for constant clinching.
I thought you said he lacked chip meaning heart but I see you didn't mean it as in no heart as you explained. Yeah he adjusted his style after getting stopped early with the help of Manny Steward I just think the mentality to overcome tough losses when people have predicted your career would be over let alone dominate 9 years takes a lot resolve. I agree he didn't have quite the same fighting insists as some other greats but often he was so dominant there was no real need to. He let himself down against Fury definitely by not going for it more when it was obvious he could be behind but made up for it against Joshua admittedly with the drive of knowing is was possibly his last chance to perform on the big stage.
Clinching has been around since the sport started. Yes, sometimes he holds too much, but that is for the referees to decide. He still beat Jennings convincingly.
Ima do my best Det. Colombo here. You missed one more thing - pretending that late 30s is the same when you fight shorter number of rounds, do less sparring and fight once or twice a year to defend mandatories with fights having a lowered punch output and clinching without the danger of dangerous inside work, as fighting in the 70s with one champion and you couldn't avoid anyone really to get your title shot, fighting as much as four to six/seven times a year is crazy. Add in steroids, better sports science, extremely complicit referees and you have nowhere the same psychological and physical wear and tear - some might even say in some ways, you don't even have the same sport. It's like comparing Jordan and Kobe and LeBron or Pele with CR7, one did it at a time where they were fouled unceremoniously and had the disadvantage of inferior technology and sports science but their skillset still holds up; the other has benefit of better quality footage, complicit referees, more protection, better recovery, and whilst undeniably great, didn't grow up in the cauldron of intense physicality that the other one had to contend with.
He would have had success in any era. But it should be obvious to you that he wouldn’t had an 11 year reign across many of them. Wlad blew a Lennox fight. He’d already lost twice, before Lennox and Vitali had fought.