Could Louis go through Holmes championship opposition undefeated

To put it mildly.

 

Braddock looks like a miniature, white Joe Joyce in there. Just as slow as molasses, yet every time he pushes a glove forward, it somehow finds Max's face. The lack of speed, skill, defense, and reflexes here is pretty astonishing considering it's a title fight.

Markus is right. Holmes' title fight opposition is definitely better than Louis'. Most Louis challengers were either undersized, or just plain bad. Holmes has a FAR better chance of running the table vs. Louis challengers than the other way around IMO.

 

Who did Marvis walk down and beat up, who of note? He certainly wouldn't walk down and beat up the man that Louis took 13 ROUNDS to KO. Smith could destroy Carnera and Baer, but it's not 100%. Again, every man mentioned could be up and down, Smith could destroy Carnera in one round or he could sleepwalk to a decision loss... He could destroy Baer, or he could get pieced up and stopped with a face as puffed as a biscuit... You keep mentioning that the 40's fighters were inconsistent, but you don't bring it up when talking of the 80s guys. I think the average 80s heavyweight was better than the average 40s heavyweight, too, I agree with pretty much all you say in the last two sentences, but it doesn't mean that Lorenzo Zanon could come in and make Joe Louis his *****. I promise you that while the progress is OBVIOUSLY there, it doesn't mean that there weren't skilled operators back then.

It depends on what version of each man goes into the fight. Peak to peak, Schmeling has it, but if you have a good version of Snipes and a lesser version of Max, Renaldo could definitely take it. I don't see Schmeling drawing with Scott Frank, or losing to Alfredo Elangelista, Rickey Parkey, Jorge Luis Gonzalez, etc... Because when we think about "Ah this fighter could totally beat the other one", it's all very cerebral, we're on the outside looking in, 40-80 years after the fact. When it comes to preparation, training, time, and all other outside factors that goes into men fighting in whatever era, unexpected things happen. You put Joe Louis in the 80's and he might bulk up, put Carl Williams in the 40s and he might get sparked out against Baer, we don't know for sure.

In a time machine match, maybe. I still would have Schmeling over him. Baer has a chance because Williams didn't have the greatest chin (downed against Ferguson, Tillis, Morrison, Tyson [from a headbutt lol, poor dude], Bruno, Weaver) and both men could be up and down, Conn was a skilled practitioner and could potentially beat him as well. When I say "he could be beaten by..." it doesn't mean automatically that I rate them higher as fighters or H2H, but the chance is there. And for the record... I am a fan of Carl, too. He's from my home state, he's a skilled guy with sweet ass speed and good combinations, and for the record I think Tyson shouldn't have gotten the stoppage over him, at least, not that way.

 

Billy Conn was 170 pounds against Joe Louis and had no power. He also relied on foot movement for defense and had little head movement. I wouldn't bet on Conn if I were you. Frazier fought in a stronger talent pool than the 1940s and while he didn't beat anyone but Smith and gatekeeper Tilis he only lost to the elites. The guys snipes lost to weren't really worse than the guys Schmeling lost to, Snipes was also way past it against Gonzalez, who was 6'7, and was pretty skilled compared to the big men back then and even most of the HWs in general. I can see Schmeling beating him though

Carnera has no chance beyond a punchers chance against Bonecrusher Smith, the Baer brothers have worse fundamentals than Smith. As crude as he was he does almost everything better. They cannot outbox him, they aren't dynamic enough, they aren't structured enough and their much worse defense would see then getting knocked out. Acknowledging that 80s HWs were inconsistent doesn't mean they were more inconsistent. The film exists for everyone to watch. Carmera was terrible. He had no head movement, didn't block unless he was putting his arms in the way, was stiff as a lamppost, and awkwardly threw himself off balance when he threw his haymakers.

I believe a prime Carl Williams would be a absolute monster in the 40s, if he had a time machine i have no doubt he'd be an all time great. He would look nigh omnipotent compared to that level of competition. I think only Joe Louis has a realistic chance of winning. Everyone else only has a punchers chance imo, he was chinny but his size + skillset would more than make up for it

 

They were on average taller heavier longer reaches tougher skin. But they were just as skillful and quicker.
Louis though from an earlier era was good enough to beat some but not all as especially bigger guys would give him trouble. Snipes Weaver and Berbick would be as big and fast as anyone he ever fought. He may win some but not all. Spinks would beat him decisively.

 

Joe Louis wasn't in his prime when he beat Braddock. That was my entire point.

The 23-year-old Joe Louis who fought (and got floored by) Braddock and went the distance in a competitive fight with Farr likely doesn't get past the Norton who Holmes fought for the title.

Norton was pretty damn good that night (maybe for the last time) and was still throwing bombs in the 15th.

 

When would you consider Joe Louis prime? I think he was pretty close to his prime in 1937.

His long reign may make it hard to guage.

 

The talent pool in the 60s,70s, 80s and after that raised the game. And you can argue to why that was

More technically sound athletic big men, but why?

Could be A) Talent pool and greater grass roots gyms B) Steroids C) more boxers who were both big and athletic from different backgrounds D) More boxing gyms, with old pros helping young boxers learn how to fight

Louis is far the best of his era but lost and had controversial fights with boxers in his era. Many of Holmes opponents are extremely underrated. I consider many of them better than anyone Louis beat. Louis is probably favourite against all. But like against Schmelling, Conn and Walcott he'd find styles that would unravel him

 

In 1937, Joe Louis was 22/23. That year, he had a competitive distance fight with Bob Pastor, a competitive distance fight with Tommy Farr, and he got floored by, let's face it, a guy who had been out of the ring for two years and was essentially a journeyman at the end of his career (in Braddock).

You can argue what years spanned Joe's absolute prime, but he certainly wasn't at his very best in 1937.

In 1978, Ken Norton wasn't Primo Carnera. I was a fan then. Norton, regardless of his rating, was considered by many as the best actual heavyweight in the world (and may very well have been) going into the fight with Holmes. Ali had lost to Spinks (and many thought he'd lost his last fight to Norton). And Leon, despite a fantastic performance against Ali, had only seven wins and a draw. And Leon didn't want to fight Norton. In fact, they offered Norton a couple hundred grand for a title shot, thinking he wouldn't take it because it was an insulting offer, and Norton accepted. But Spinks still backed out.

Joe wasn't bowling a lot of guys over in 1937. And he was having a tough go in distance fights. Norton probably beats him at that point.

 

Louis had some tougher fights in 1939-1942 also though. Godoy challenged him giving him a close fight 1st time and Conn as we know as well.

1938 was the year were Louis didn't have these fights and obviously WW2 cut into his 1942-1946 and we know the story after that.

 

I still think Louis would win. He beat the crap out of Braddock despite that one moment of carelessness . And yes Norton was good against Holmes but the greatest puncher of all time is not a good person to pit him against

 

Actually you got it the other way around. Louis mutilated the giants of his day. And I can’t see what specifically looks technically better about Smith or Snipes than Schmeling, Walcott or Conn.

 

Even if he means Michael, it’s still a horrible match. M. Spinks was a slow starter. And at close to mid range he’d get pegged by those Louis combinations. No disrespect to the Jinx. Im a big fan and he was definitely an all time great. But Joe Louis is poison for that type of fighter.