Could Louis go through Holmes championship opposition undefeated

I mean, you're not wrong, but do you think guys like Abe Simon & Buddy Baer are skilled enough for it to even be relevant? Simon went 13 rounds with Louis in a fight that was competitive, at least from from I've read. How does Simon stack up against guys like Witherspoon, Smith, Williams, etc.? He didn't appear to be very good IMO...

 

Honestly, no.. I don’t think those guys stack up well with larger men of late. But generally Louis’s issues came more with slicker boxers and I think you know that Bonecrusher smith doesn’t come close to making that cut even if he IS better than Abe Simon. Witherspoon might be a tough opponent for Louis if he’s In shape and motivated and I’ve said as much for years. But that possibility is due to a myriad of reasons and not just because he’s “ big. “

 

Don't be deceived mate. Louis obliterated Carnera and Baer in 1935 and was the #1 rated contender. Baer was well inside the top 10 and Primo hadn't lost since losing the title. Schmeling famously exploited a Louis weakness (and a poorly trained Louis, which was stated pre-fight, not post-loss by his trainer) to give him the final lesson he needed.

It was only 12 months after he beat Braddock that he had his famous win over Schmeling in the rematch. Louis was well into his prime when he fought Braddock. Balance KD's and the like was part of his game due to his aggressive style.

 

Louis didn't obliterate Baer. Baer quit. He had a broken right hand. He took a knee. He wasn't out. He chose not to get up. And he said if anyone wanted to see him take a beating they'd have to pay him more.

A quit job is a quit job. Whether it's Max Baer taking a knee and choosing not to keep fighting or Bruce Seldon.

Louis wasn't into his prime. He had just turned 23 when he fought Braddock. Like weeks earlier turned 23. Schmeling knocked him out a year earlier. Pastor nearly outboxed him over the distance. Braddock, who was basically a journeyman and was out of the ring for two years, floored him. And Farr went 15 and gave as good as he got for most.

A year or two later, Schmeling only lasted one. Pastor got the hell beat out of him. Louis matured in his mid 20s. Louis got much better.

Louis was still a maturing into a full grown man at 22/23.

You guys get hung up on the Sharkey and Carnera fights. That's like Ajagba beating Charles Martin. Lots of rising heavyweights beat aging former champs. Who cares. Schmeling had more left in him and beat the snot out of Louis, because he was still learning.

And the Ken Norton who fought Holmes was better than all of the guys Louis beat.

 

That's fine. We'll never know.

I'm just saying Louis may not have even beaten the first guy on Larry's title list. It certainly wasn't going to be as easy as beating a two-years-out-of-the-ring Braddock, and a young Louis had to get off the floor to do that.

 

Oh I know and I agree. Louis from about the time he has been the pros for 18 months onward would have beaten many champions regardless of the Schmeling loss or Braddock knockdown

 

Not a chance. But he does pick up a few good wins vs Norton, Cooney, Ali, Snipes, Cobb, Frazier, Bey. Loses to Witherspoon, Weaver, Shavers, M. Spinks.

 

What? Watch the fight, no matter how the fight ended, Louis obliterated him.

 

He absolutely obliterated him. Have you not seen the fight? He beat him so bad he did not want to get up and face Louis' fury again. The quotes i have always seen use "executed", not "beating". I feel like you already know this but want to minimize it to suit your stance.

Of course he was in his prime. Prime does not equal peak. Schmeling was the last big lesson he needed. He shored up a couple of technical deficiencies and learnt the perils of getting overconfident and not training 100%.

For me Louis was in his early prime vs Braddock.

"A year or two"???? It was one year to the day. Not two years, not one or two, it was one year. You knew this. He certainly didn't turn from boy to man in those 12 months. Miracles didn't happen in 12 months.

Louis was known to be hell in rematches. Godoy took Louis to a split decision over 15 in 1940 and then just four months later was stopped in 8. Did Louis also improve/mature immensely in those 4 months? It's a NO.

But lets totally destroy the notion. Mike Tyson at 22-23 Before he turned 22 Mike Tyson had beaten Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes Tubbs and Spinks.

Mike Tyson certainly didn't show any improvement any which way when he turned 22 and 23. Joe Louis was prime by the time he beat Braddock. Any improvements were small.

I haven't mentioned Sharkey. I'm hung up on facts, balance and the eye test.

He gets propped up in that fight but he was not at his best, even if he did perform admirably. The best of him would have beaten Holmes that night. Holmes still had a bit to learn. Even peak for peak there'd be nothing between them IMO.

There's no guarantee a Walcott doesn't catch him.

 

TBH if we're being honest the most skillful Heavyweights of that era who even then weren't technically Heavyweights by todays standards weighing under 200 pounds like Charles, Walcott, etc.

Most of the Heavyweights of that era don't age well in regards to the footage of them to be quite frank.

I'm not dissing Louis because it's different eras and he fought the best available and his wins over ranked Heavyweights and the number of title defences he made is astonishing TBH.

But i don't think Louis is quite the unbeatable H2H monster across all eras key word here.

Now Holmes's title reign was good but it wasn't against ATG's or greats and his reign towards the end of his career was a bit of a cherrypick TBH.

I do think Louis would do better against some of Holmes's most well known opponents like Shavers, Norton. Norton doesn't fair well against KO punchers especially against a lethal finisher like Louis. And Shavers is a bit of a glass cannon so whilst he may floor Louis early i can't see him making it out of the first 6 rounds.

But then there's other opponents on Holmes's resume that may trouble Louis more than you think.

An aging Louis would have trouble vs Witherspoon i believe.

An aging Louis would have trouble against a 6'5, 85 inch reach Williams i believe also.

Let's remember a 168 pound Conn a Super Middleweight by todays standards came within 2 rounds of beating a prime Louis.

Farr who had over 30 losses went 15 very competitive rounds with a prime Louis.

Godoy lost a split decision to a prime Louis in another very competitive 15 round fight.

Louis also had his own moments of being floored like Holmes did.

So whilst i would make Louis a favourite over all of Holmes's title challengers it wouldn't surprise me if there was a banana peel in their somewhere.

 

For me, he wasn't in 1937. Clearly. Since he mopped the floor with Schmeling and Pastor a year (Schmeling) or two (the two being Pastor) later.

Ali fought Doug Jones eleven months before he fought Liston. Was Ali in his prime against Doug Jones? Was Ali in his prime against Henry Cooper in their first fight?

Of course not, regardless of how many "months" later he got a LOT better.

Joe Louis was certainly more than prepared to beat Jim Braddock, even though he had to get off the floor to do it. But 25 guys were good enough to beat Jim Braddock before Louis ever fought him. And Baer had essentially quit when he lost the title to Braddock.

These weren't guys operating on all cylinders. The Norton who fought Holmes had knocked off the 38-0 unbeaten Olympian Bobick in less than a minute, wasted Zanon and beat Jimmy Young over 15 rounds ... and most thought he'd beaten Ali in the fight before those. And Norton threw bombs with Holmes for 15 rounds.

He was no quitter or a rusty pushover.

He certainly wasn't some 25-loss guy who'd been off for two years, like Braddock, or Baer, who just quit against a journeyman and gave up his belt and entered the Louis fight with a confirmed broken right hand and broken left wrist. For Christ's sake, those are the guys you say prove Louis was in his prime?

Tommy Farr didn't have "a broken anything", neither did Pastor, and they demonstrated Louis in 1937 wasn't quite at his best yet.

But he'd get there soon enough.

Not soon enough, IMO, for the 1937 Louis to beat the Norton who Holmes fought in 1978.

 

Louis is immune to banana peels

 

But how does he do against blue shells?

 

Have you seen a picture of Godoy’s face after the rematch? He looked like a gargoyle.

 

Come on. He killed those guys. Only Simon gave him a fight and that was just in their first meeting. I realize the big men of the 1930s and 40’s weren’t poster boys for great speed, skill and athleticism but some people are trying to make it sound like Bonecrusher smith and Gerry Cooney were Sugar Ray Leonard by comparison.