Who is greater P4P George Foreman or Gennady Golovkin?

Whose likely over taken him for you, Matt?

I'm guessing Usyk, Crawford, Inoue and Chocolatito for certain. Probably Canelo, too.

Loma I'm not sure. I'm assuming no for Ward and Wlad.

I'm wondering if I've missed any other obvious candidate.

 

BCS8,


We've not actually debated in a while, as it normally results in sarcasm and deflection.

However, we can try again.

We can try and be civil.


Now I'm a big fan of both guys.

But when you apply traditional ranking criteria, GGG cannot EASILY rank ahead.

No. Because you have to simply evaluate the divisions when both fighters were active.

If the MW division has generally been more prestigious than the HW division, then that's fine.

However, it has no relevance here.

Here, we can only compare the MW division during GGG's reign, with the specific HW divisions that George was apart of.


Yes, GGG dominated his division, in a way that George didn't. But if it was a weaker division, then we have to take that into account.

We have to apply context if we're being objective.

I don't see how it's debatable. By any metric, GGG's opposition were B and C level guys. With or without GGG, that would always have been the case. We can assess the careers of everyone who GGG fought.

You know that this is always disputed. It always has been. Due to the regular belt etc. It was debated just last week. Either way, it isn't impressive. It doesn't matter what the numbers were. It's the strength of the opposition. Otherwise Ottke and Calzaghe's reigns would be universally celebrated.

Okay. But you don't share this opinion when it comes to Wlad K.

GGG barely beat anybody of real note. And his best wins aren't on another level to George's best wins. Many people would actually argue that George's best wins were better.

I agree. Although maybe not in his second career in his mid to late 40's.

Okay. But then you have to give credit to a small 45 year old HW for winning back a version of the title against a competent guy.

Okay. We can criticise George. But let's apply some context here.

He was young. He'd been destroying everyone. Credible fighters of the era. The whole boxing world literally feared for Ali's health, where most thought that he was going to get destroyed.

So George went in thinking that it was a foregone conclusion.

However, he was completely psyched out, by one of the greatest HW's of all time, if not THE greatest. And in the humidity of Zaire.

Now whilst something like that has never happened to GGG, he's simply never found himself in a situation like that, with a truly great, iconic fighter, in similar conditions.

It's not remotely the same.

George had many more professional fights, at a much more advanced age, where he fought a guy better than anybody who GGG ever fought.

Absolutely. 100%

As we both know, GGG was universally ducked.

Now had he have got the Canelo win and the wins over several other guys like Cotto etc, of course his resume/wins would be much better.

However, it goes the other way too.

Had he have fought many more fights, and into advanced years like George, then he also could have accumulated more losses too.

 

Okay.

What criteria are we using?


For decades now, most fans have ranked on the following:


Ability

Resume

Wins

Achievements

Longevity


Now there's obviously a lot more to look at too. But they're the main ones.


So unless you want to use another form of objective criteria, we can use the one above.


I'll give you my honest opinions:


Ability - GGG

Resume - George

Wins - George

Accomplishments - George

Longevity - George


What can be debated there the most, is the achievements.


GGG had a long reign, with 21 defences.

Obviously George didn't.

However, he came back and won a version of the HW title at 45 years of age. An age, where GGG hasn't competed.


Now if you want to discuss this objectively, we can do.

However, I see no reason why GGG should EASILY rank higher.

 

Again, where's the context?


GGG beat no great fighters.

He struggled with Jacobs and Derev.


It's a stretch calling him a force of nature.


It's easy to say that there was no style that he couldn't cope with, when he hardly fought any elite level guys.


The greatest fighter he ever fought was an overrated Canelo.

 

He absolutely wasn’t better than Foreman physically.

 

Absolutely.

And why not an objective debate based on the following: (traditional ranking criteria as I've always known it)

Ability
Resume
Wins
Accomplishments
Longevity

 

Or just one factor at a time.

List the best fighters that they fought.

And the best fighters that they beat.

 

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I would.

His comeback at 45 is huge.

Now I would be open to anybody voting for GGG.

But how can he easily be ahead??

Is GGG’s MW reign a better accomplishment than what George did?

Sure, George had losses that GGG didn’t. But then he fought better fighters. He fought more fighters. And most of his losses and gifts, were at an age when GGG isn’t/wasn’t active.

For GGG to be ahead, he’d have had to have beaten a better group of fighters, and done something really special.

George coming back and beating Moorer at 45 was special.

He was robbed against Briggs at almost 50.

If you want to say that GGG was a better fighter in terms of ability, then sure.

But how does he easily rank higher on an ATG ranking?

I can’t see it.

He has no wins better than George’s best wins.

He didn’t fight the calibre of guys who George fought.

So how does he rank higher?

On JUST ability?

On ability AND a reign filled with B and C level guys??

For me, it’s not enough.

You could also say that George was more ambitious and took more chances.

George fought a prime Evander, and he wanted Tyson.

Whereas GGG was happy at MW, where he didn’t really want to venture any higher for a prolonged period.

Now whilst there was nothing wrong with that, as guys like Marvin didn’t, it has to be accounted for when analysing them H2H like this.

Again, I think that they were both special fighters.

But for me, there’s just no way that GGG easily ranks higher.