Evander Holyfield And Joe Frazier..

Come on. You can do better.

In a hypothetical match-up both will ALWAYS have struggled with a fighter that`s not as good ad the one they've being matched-up with. Moorer was nowhere near as good as Frazier and Holy lost to him. Must that mean Frazier must beat Holy? Of course not. Stewart, Dokes gave Holy good fights without being as good as Frazier. Ancient Holmes did. Doesn't mean anything here.

In fact, Frazier himself beat better fighters than Bonavena - easily. Ellis and Quarry for example. That he had one tough fight against Bonavena when fairly green means nothing and it's a joke that you make so much out of it. Not only did Frazier beat better fighters than Bonavena, he beat Bonavena withiot much fuzz in the rematch.

If you take the poorest performance by any fighter (and Bonavena 1 is certainly one of Frazier's poorest) you can make almost any half decent fighter a favourite over him. As I said, just going by Bonevena 1, you'd make guys like Quarry and Ellis clear favourites over Frazier. But in real life he beat them clearly. Just like Tyson beat many fighters that were better than Tillis, just like Ali beat many fighters that were better than Doug Jones, just like Wlad beat many fighters that were better than Purrity, Lewis than McCall etc etc....

But you know this. You made a lazy take and just won't admit it.

Actually, I don't think the Cooper fight means anytthing either. Holy absolutely dominated most of that fight; as you said, and just became a bit careless. But at least there is the style component there. And that was the point of the poster you replied to. But Bonavena was just so random.

 

The guy I replied to said Holyfield had major issues when he was handling Cooper outside of that 3rd round and stopped him in the middle rounds. That was moreso Coopers sneaky punching power rather than the relentless pressure and I think he hit harder than Frazier despite being obviously inferior in every other category. Bonavena doesn't fight like Holyfield but he does nothing better besides hitting harder. Bugner gave Fraizer a good fight like Dokes or old Holmes, that happens all the time, but another take away is Holyfield fought 2x the amount of top HWs than Fraizer did and beat way more power punchers.

Im not sure Ellis, Quarry or light heavyweight Machen would fair as well against Dokes or Douglas as they did against fellow contenders but there'd be no way to know. Holyfield had heart problems in the first Moorer fight and briefly retired because of it, he beat him soundly in the rematch and scored a knockdown. IMO Moorer would been a higher threat level in the 70s because of smaller heavyweights and the smaller talent pool. He was more skilled better than anyone Frazier beat besides Ali and Machen and he was a southpaw

 

Two hearts...

 

I don't know who would win. I just wanted to point out that Frazier only loss to two fighters. Ali and Foreman. I don't see no shame in that.

 

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On what planet does placing so much importance on the first Bonavena fight hold up??? It was is 12th professional fight for the love of god. He'd been pro for 14 months. Frazier's aid he was still 18 months away from being ready for a title shot. 10 fights later Frazier pounded the living daylights out of him for 15 rounds.

Is Holyfield facing 11-0 Frazier? Anyone would think he was

 

Bonavena wouldn't be ranked in the 90s. If you want to brush off every subpar performance of Frazier at the end of the day Holyfield has a better resume. I'd have to pick Holyfield, he wouldn't wilt to the pressure, he can match Fraizers aggression and he has more in the toolbox

 

Get out of here. It was his 12th frigging fight lol. Holyfield was at his peak when Cooper rattled his world. World champ! Far more usable than Bonavena. Did Holyfield rematch him and show it to be a fluke or learning curve? Nup.

Disingenuous at best.

 

Rematch ? He knocked Cooper out !! And you want to call me disingenuous ?? Cooper didn't win a single round beyond the 3rd and you think Holyfield needed to prove that KD was a fluke in a rematch ? Cooper knocking him down could've been as much of a fluke as Ali getting dropped by Doug Jones. You nostalgic fans are on some goofy ****. At least Holyfield wasn't dropped 3 times

The reality is Holyfield beat 4x the amount of power punchers Fraizer did and over twice the amount of top contenders. Not only is he better than Fraizer, he is greater than Fraizer. Who knows, maybe Holyfield manhandles and stops Fraizer the same way he did mike, after all, Mike had a better chin than Frazier and hit harder

 

The Cooper fight was put forth as to how silly your reliance on Frazier's 12th fight is. Cooper is actually a far stronger stance (tho also silly but not near as silly) than Bonavena which shows how stupendously silly your stance is.

Holyfield isn't a power puncher so how does him facing more power punchers than Frazier matter? More irrelevant silliness.

Frazier was more tenacious and determined than Tyson when push come to shove.

Who exactly did post prison Tyson actually beat?

If you can't see how silly the fixation on the 1st Bonavena fight is there's not much to say.

Holyfield is a "greater" fighter than Frazier as well? With cruiser added perhaps but not as a heavyweight.

 

Is this the same person who thinks Holyfield should've rematched Cooper to prove it was a fluke ? Holyfield beat up and stopped Cooper outside of round 3. You can call the Bonavena comparison silly all you want but Bonavena is crude, unpolished and limited meanwhile Holyfield beat a far better opponent than Fraizer did in his 12th fight and didn't get dropped 3 times. He didn't even get dropped twice against Cooper. He also KOd Qawi in the rematch.

Holyfield isn't a puncher sure but still stopped Tyson, Douglas, Thomas, Qawi and dropped Moorer, Bowe and Mercer. Holyfield was hurting bigger guys. Fraizer isn't walking through his shots with all that torque Holyfield has on his power punches, you're crazy. Holyfield would lose to prime Foreman but he certainly wouldn't get ping ponged like Fraizer did. Holyfield is more proven against punchers so Fraizer likely isn't stopping him, but Holyfield might stop him, because Fraizer was 1 dimensional.

Holyfield is more skilled than anyone Fraizer has ever beat. Holyfield is better on the inside than anyone Frazier has beaten. Holyfield has more multifaceted offense than anyone Frazier has beat. Holyfield has a better resume. Holyfield has experience against tough rugged fighters and pressure fighters. You are hung on 1 compararison. But there are numerous reasons why Holyfield would be favored

 

Yep he'd be on top. Had he stuck with Rooney he would've been the first heavyweight champeen to defend the title in prison, but they took that away from him too.

 

You seem to have comprehension difficulty. The Cooper example was put forth to show how ludicrous your Bonvena 1 fixation is. But we can go on with it, absolutely. Bonavena is a better fighter than Bert bloody Cooper, are you denying that?!?!?!?!? You think Cooper is better? Cooper had 7 losses to 26 wins when Holyfield fought him. Holyfield was peak, Frazier was 11 fights old lol. Holyfield was on ***** street for a bit. 7 people had beaten Cooper prior to Holyfield. Bonavena lost 9 fights in his life, and won 58, 44 by KO. His durability and toughness is legendary. He was only ever stopped by The GOAT, and that went into the 15th round.

Qawi was a blown up light heavyweight.

Holmes and Ali stopped a ton of people too, but they weren't punchers. Moorer had a breakable mandible and there's a serious amount of people that argument Bowe was kept away from punchers.

I need you to show me exactly where i said Frazer was walking thru Holyfield's punches. There's the odd poster in here that likes to pretend people have said things when they haven't. It's beyond comprehension, really.

At any rate Holyfield wouldn't be belting Frazier out of there. Frazier took plenty of hard punches in his career, including a helluva lot from the GOAT. Holyfield, like Ali and Holmes, is more of a wear them down guy. I'd be surprised if Holyfield stopped him, and Frazier could well stop Holyfield. He's awesome at pounding people into submission.

Frazier getting pounded by Foreman vs how you fantasize Holyfield might fare means next to nothing here.

Frazier is an entirely different type of puncher/stoppage artist to the guys Holyfield faced, if you haven't worked that out. He grinds people down hard thru suffocating pressure and workrate supported by powerful punching, both to head and body. He's a completely different beast.

I'm hung up on one comparison?!?!?!! You've harped on endlessly about Frazier's 12th pro fight. I threw up Cooper to ridicule that said harping. You somehow haven't picked up on that yet. You're throwing stones at your very own stance. As Rebecca said to the detectives, the more you prove your case the more you prove mine.

Holyfield is not as good as Frazier on the inside. What inside fighter as good as Frazier has Holyfield beaten? Holyfield was stopped by Bowe and in enormous trouble in their first fight. Many think he lost all three.

Holyfield's heavyweight resume has a lot of losses. Frazier's win over Ali towers over any single win by Holyfield.

I sense a lot of emotion and disdain for poor old Joe.

P.S. It's Frazier with the i after the "z", not before it. Mendoza stuffed that up for years, how i do not know.

 

Cooper was brought up first and you yourself said both were silly comparisons. So why are you still talking about them after ? You even claimed i was fixated on said comparison when that same post you replied to didn't mention Bonavena at all !!! Scroll up and you will see in our interactions you're the one who is fixated on it !

Holyfields HW resume:
- Pinklon Thomas
- Michael Dokes
- Alex Stewart
- James Douglas
- George Foreman
- Larry Holmes
- Riddick Bowe
- Ray Mercer
- Michael Moorer
- Mike Tyson
- Hasim Rahman
- John Ruiz

Joe Frazier HW resume:
- Muhammad Ali
- Jerry Quarry
- Jimmy Ellis
- Joe Bugner
- Buster Mathis
- Oscar Bonavena
- George Chuvalo
- Eddie Machen

Frazier has the best win but Holyfield obviously has the deeper resume and guys like Jimmy Ellis and Eddie Machen were closer in size to the cruiserweights Holyfield beat than true heavyweights so keep that in mind. I also didn't list Ocasio who was previously ranked as a heavyweight in the 80s. Qawi was 190 pounds, 2 pounds smaller than Machen.

Holyfield won every round in my book and the judges cards beyond the 3rd where he got floored. He also knocked Cooper out in 7 rounds and gave him a beating afterwards. Im not the one hung up on the comparison. I had already moved on when you mentioned me. I didn't mention that specific fight in my second reply and i gave you the benefit of brushing it off to allow the conversation to move on to other reasonings as to why i favor Holyfield yet you still brought up both comparisons. You're the one who continuously brought it up and you replied to me first. You're responses are right here

You called both comparisons silly but still mentioned them more times than I did in these interactions

Yes, a completely different 1 dimensional beast who breaks fighters down with relentless attrition while also throwing the same left hook over and over and over and being susceptible to counter punchers. Moorers chin was about as breakable as anyone who Frazier knocked down thats for sure. Holyfield was also hurting bigger guys than either of them, and yes, Fraizer would have to walk through Holyfields offense to beat him, that's just the way it's going to be.

What inside fighter did Frazier beat as good as Holyfield ? It goes both ways. What we do know is Holyfield is more skilled than Frazier, a better combination puncher than Frazier, a better counter puncher than Frazier, has more complex offense and footwork than Frazier, is more proven against power punchers than Frazier and was elite in the pocket in his era compared to everyone besides Bowe who is way bigger than Frazier. Do YOU think Frazier would beat Bowe ? Be honest

Frazier retired at 32. Holyfield fought until 45 when he easily could've retired after the 2nd Lewis fight or the Rahman fight. None of this changes that Holyfield beat more top guys, achieved more and i firmly believe he fought in a deeper talent pool as well. All you have to do it list off all the top guys and fringe contenders of the 70s and 90s and the 90s is clearly much deeper with a host of moderately skilled Super Heavyweights. If you want me to do that just let me know. Holyfield is more versatile, was just as durable if not more durable than Frazier and has good survival skills so it's unlikely Frazier stops him even if he has him hurt or drops him, meanwhile if Holyfield wobbled Frazier like Bugner did he would a let off a continuous sequence of combinations and use angles while Frazier would try and bob his head instead of clinching or use the cross armed guard which Evan Fields was good as penetrating not to mention Frazier is terrible on the backfoot. Prime Holyfield is also more skilled than anyone in the 70s, far better on the inside than Ali and wasn't far off in the handspeed department

 

Because you keep expanding on it. You had seven posts regarding Cooper before i even posted in here. I have four posts total in this thread.

Holyfield also has far more losses. He was beaten 2-1 in a series at his absolute peak. By a non ATG on the whole. He was also beaten by Moorer. A lot hangs on his wins over Tyson, but how good was Tyson at that point? The size of Ellis and Machen is irrelevant, it was an open division weight wise.

Qawi was way overweight. He was a career light heavyweight who had the skill to move up and still fight at a high level for a time.

Joe Frazier lost to two people in his professional life. Two ATG's. One is the consensus GOAT. Holyfield lost to multiple non ATG's. Losses count. Trying to ram Holyfield's heavyweight resume over the top of Frazier's like it's inarguable is casual.

You have zero idea of context. Holyfield was PEAK. Ali was in his 11th! fight vs Banks. You love trying to leverage these fights when they were green. It's a terribly weak argument. It defeats itself.

They are, so stop trying to add stuff (Ali - Banks) trying to justify, stuff that falls down on it's very ownsome.

Quarry was one of the better counter punchers in Heavyweight history. How did him and his counters go? It's hardly like Ali couldn't counter too.

When someone has loads and loads of success and it's hard to work out why, one needs to study them and see WHY they had so much success. Monzon fools a lot of people as well. The fights aren't all fixes.

Highlighted - Moorer's chin is comparable to anyone's Frazier knocked down?????? You are comparing Ali's chin with Moorer's???? You either have no idea Frazier knocked Ali down in The Fight of the Century, or think Ali and Moorer have similar chins. It's a no win situation.

You keep talking size and stuff. You obviously place great importance on it.

You seem to think Frazier has never slipped a punch in his life. You seem to think Frazier's offense doesn't matter.

Skills come in different guises. Frazier's skill on the inside is brilliant for a heavyweight. You seem to think pretty wins. A lot of fighters had more than Frazier on paper but he licked them. Frazier's style was based on what worked for him and enabled him to beat high level fighters. It was fine tuned by Eddie Futch. Perhaps you could have guided them in better directions.

I think Frazier would be a chance of beating Bowe, yes. Tough fight but i would not be surprised at all with a Frazier win. Bowe was easy to hit.

None of it changes Holyfield was beaten in a series by Bowe at his peak and also lost to Moorer. I didn't speak about losses Holyfield tallied up past his best, that would be disingenuous.

Holyfield's handspeed now threatens to rival Ali's lol. It sounds like Holyfield should never have been beaten the way you talk him up. Every single thing a strength with not a single weakness. I can't believe he ever lost.

Bugner was Frazier's comeback fight after getting axed by Foreman. Do you think Frazier was ever as good again post Foreman? Imagine Frazier's relentlessness if he hurt Vander like Cooper or Bowe did.

Also Frazier dropped Joe, so you think Moorer's chin matches Bugner's as well? Humor me.