Evander Holyfield And Joe Frazier..

But i brushed off that performance to move on from those 2 comparisons and you still went back to the same subject twice and mentioned it in all of our interactions. In the current time Nobody is obsessed about it but possibly you. I have already moved on, so stop taking about it.

Lol. Qawi went all the way up to the 220s and was slipping shots. He was a heavy set person and he had no issues weighing 190. You yourself said he had the skills to move up so your making your previous point mute. He didn't become drastically slower. You mentioned size is irrelevant then dismissed Holyfields cruiserweight wins when they are no smaller than a couple of Fraziers opponents like wtf ? Even if it's an open division and said fighters are more credible that doesn't make those specific fighters bigger lol. Machen was 192lb. Quarry wasn't even 200 pounds. Holyfield at 6'2, 210 would have been one of the bigger heavyweights in the 60s and a medium sized heavyweight in the 70s just to put it into perspective. Williams was seen as a huge heavyweight

Holyfield also fought until 45. Regardless he beat more ranked opponents, almost twice as many. Losses count but so does the context. Frazier retired at 32 and didn't fight as many top HWs. Eddie's Machen was well past his prime but i still listed him. Tyson had beaten 2 fringe contenders in Botha and Savarese, another contender in Golota post 1996 and KO'd Bruno who was coming off a win over Oliver McCall and did it quicker than before so he was still world class, likely still elite even if declined and didn't lose to anyone else in the 90s. 90s Tyson would smoke everyone Frazier beat besides Ali ngl. He might even KO Frazier himself.

Levels below Holyfield. Quarry is about as good as Dokes in terms of counter punching, certainly not as big or as fast however and Holyfield outclassed him.

He had heart problems to the point he had to briefly retire, that is serious stuff so the fact that Holyfield was able to beat Moorer in the rematch adds credence to his previous health problems. It would be expected for fighters that fought more years and more top HWs to lose more not to mention Holyfields health issues and the fact he fought about 3x the amount of power punchers. Holyfield also fought in a more stacked era and had more fights in his career, having a crapton of fights is something you bring up a lot. Bowe was much bigger than Frazier, and was actually more dynamic in the pocket compared to Frazier. All Frazier did better than Bowe was the left hook, body punching and using the cross guard, but Bowe hit harder and had more punches and combinations in his arsenal not to mention a better jab. Frazier wasn't even a better counter puncher. That uppercut is flooring Frazier and there is no way Frazier handles the same punishment Holyfield did fighting Bowe before finally succumbing assuming he gets hit by those same shots. Frazier never beat anyone as big as Bowe either

Funny you mentioned that, he immediately staggered Frazier after the KD and I'd say Mercer has a more proven chin than Bugner. He absorbed punches from Morrison and Lewis without blinking.

Cooper was on Holyfield like a fly on **** but Holyfield was smart enough and had the tools to defend himself from getting overwhelmed while hurt. Holyfield is better than Frazier legacy wise and he's more skilled by a significant margin. That doesn't mean Frazier wasn't elite, nobody said that, but the statistics and the toolkit alone is enough for me to make Evan Fields a favorite. He also had some juice to assist him

Yes, Holyfields handspeed is in a similar ballpark to 70s Ali because that wasn't prime Ali, just watch film, don't make Ali out like a demigod. Also Ali lost to Ken Norton and everyone has weaknesses, who tf said Holyfield was invincible ? I merely listed some advantages he has Frazier and he has a lot.

 

Bonavena dropped Frazier TWICE in round two of their first bout and thats it. Did you even watch the fight or are you just parroting something you (mis)heard?
Watch Frazier vs Ellis, Chuvalo, Ramos, Foster and hurt see Joe hurt the super durable Ali like no one before or after. He was a brutal puncher and no one shrugs his shots off if he lands cleanly. Saying a middling fighter like Cooper hits harder is asinine and false.

This fight would be a war anf would be incredible viewing. You making stuff up to strengthen your argument is unbecoming of you.

 

Qawi was a beach ball at 220 with 45+ pounds of tub, but hey if he slipped a couple of shots his cred up there is solid. The guy was 5"6 with a 71" reach lol.

What I actually said "Qawi was way overweight. He was a career light heavyweight who had the skill to move up and still fight at a high level for a time." He won no titles above 175.

Cuiserweight isn't the open weight division. Did any of Holyfields cruiserweight opponents have a heavyweight ranking at the time they fought?

How big would Holyfield have been without juicing????

You are talking about context????? Tyson beat Botha, Savarese and Golota, that's part of your boost for how good he was post prison? Right. Bruno was a reasonable win except he froze embarrassingly.

Tyson at his peak was a great fighter. That has nothing to do with Frazier vs Holyfield, obviously.

Quarry was a superb counter puncher and he was brutalized by Frazier. He countered better than Dokes. Dokes was a recovering drug addict when he fought Holyfield. He put on a fine show but his legs looked terrible.

He had heart problems due to steroids seems to be the consensus

So Bowe had just as good an engine as Frazier? Right. A better defense? Bowe was just as good or better up close?

Bugner has a better chin than Moorer, which slaps down your claim the guys Frazier dropped had no better chins than Moorer.

I haven't seen you reply to the Ali point? Your statement obviously meant Ali didn't have a better chin than Moorer. Care to quantify that?

There's Bert Cooper again in the same post you banged on about me shutting up about him!!!! LOL!!!!!

Cooper was barely a fringe contender LOL. You are seriously trying to compare his finishing to Frazier?????? Lord have mercy.

Holyfield did have some juice to assist, that's the most bang on thing you've said.

Saying Ali had faster handspeed than Holyfield in the early 70's is making Ali out to be a demi-god? Jesus.

It would be a great fight. I'd probably lean 55-45 Frazier, 60-40 maybe at the most. I would not want to be between them.

 

Wrong he was a champion at cruiserweight and had a title defense against someone you know very well. Also that doesn't change how tiny Fraizers opponents were, just something to keep note of

More excuses Bruno was coming off a win over McCall who was having a good streak and Tyson demolished him even quicker. Tyson was still elite, fast and powerful, despite being declined. A bigger threat than Frazier for sure

Was he ? I disagree Dokes was better at landing quick counters especially with the hooks and following up with combinations. He had more creative offense too. I'd say they were a similar level, but Dokes was clearly more talented. Quarry had no athletic advantages and no technical advantages over mr drug addict Dokes besides footwork ? and he was about 25-30 pounds smaller. Wouldn't be surprised at all if Dokes also hit harder

That is pure speculation.

Also I don't remember Bowe gassing in his prime, Bowe threw more punches against Holyfield than Frazier did against Ali over less rounds so yes their stamina levels are in the same ballpark statistically speaking and Bowe is bigger, stronger, hit harder and has more dynamic offense. Bowe actually beat more punchers than Frazier btw.

Ali had a great good chin but he was dropped by Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks both of whom were tiny heavyweights and they all did it via left hooks. Using the experience excuse doesn't really work because all of them were terrible HWs. Yes Ali had a better chin than Moorer but did he have a better chin than Mercer (who Holyfield kncoked down) ? I don't see Mercer getting sent to lala land by 190 pound Cooper and Banks. The entire point is Holyfield hit hard enough to drop Frazier and Holyfield is the more skilled fighter here and threw more combinations. He was hurting bigger guys than Frazier did and was staggering guys with good chins like Foreman

You mentioned Cooper again, I only replied to it. The lols are immaterial. Holyfield had the durability and defense to protect himself from Fraziers onslaught and he had a more stacked resume along with having beaten more punchers so I doubt Frazier would knock him out considering Frazier was 1 usually spams his left hook when he has someone hurt. As a matter of fact, he doesn't approach his hurt opponents much differently from his normal pressure. Is your stance really "Cooper was able to drop Holyfield so Frazier would finish the job because he's levels above Cooper" ? is your point really that facile ?

If you're admitting Holyfield was on steroids thats just another advantage Mr Evan Fields has over Frazier.

He really didn't as Holyfield showed the same level of handspeed against Dokes. 60s Ali was clearly faster, 70s Ali not so much

 

You guys are way out on a tangent. Holyfield though he started a cruiser was a larger modern fighter 6 2 and a solid muscular 215 lbs. not just a slugger but fast skilled fighter very durable tons of heart strong powerful. Frazier was more of a 60s heavyweight 5 11 and in his prime 205 at his heaviest. He was great fighting 1960s size guys Bob Foster Quarry Ellis Bonavena. He did get that 1st win against Ali then lost the next 2. Ali for all his gifts was not a big puncher. Foreman proved to be Joe hitting his level of incompetence. He never fought another larger fighter. No Lyle or Shavers or Norton. Fighting larger powerful guys he would not have been a special fighter. Holyfield was as big and strong as those guys but faster and more skillful. Holyfield would have been too strong and fast for Frazier. Think of how he matched then exceeded Tyson head to head. Tyson more powerful and faster than Frazier.

 

Frazier actually threw and landed more punches than Tyson, more power punches too, there's a Frazier thread where someone posted the comparison stats from a Ring article

Ali has said Frazier hit him as hard as anybody, so Frazier not only had power, he also had better work rate and accuracy than Tyson

Holyfield never had the kind of stamina to handle Frazier in deep water, he had good stamina relative to a lot of his contemporaries, but not on the level of Frazier in the championship rounds

 

Holyfield was one of the best conditioned heavyweight champs of alltime. Also he was heavier faster and stronger then Frazier he would beat up Frazier maybe not enough to do a Foreman but pretty thorough. Evander is 2 big steps up from Chuvalo and Bonavena.

 

I'll concede the title, but it makes no difference.

There's that size fixation again. Thankfully Usyk has made an absolute fool of that notion.

Tyson as Bruno's last ever fight. Do you think he retired because he was at the peak of his career? Bruno was 19 pounds heavier than in his initial clash with Tyson. He looked sluggish, weight isn't everything. He wasn't that impressive vs McCall, the last round was terrible and he looked vulnerable at various times. Tyson was still hell on wheels for a few rounds, absolutely.

Per the bolded you are saying post prison Tyson was a bigger threat than peak Frazier, yes?

We'll disagree, i think Quarry was a better counter puncher than Dokes.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

Frazier wears different, he kills the body while routinely testing the head.

There it is, that's all that need be said.

Holyfield copped bombs on a routine basis, now his defense is too good for Frazier's attack?!?!?!?! You must be watching different fighters.

Do you think that's my stance? My point facile? I looked up facile in the dictionary and there is a picture of Frazier - Bonavena 1.

I've made my opinions by what i have seen of both in the ring. Steroids don't guarantee a win, do they?

"Not so much", you are breaking. Holyfield wasn't as fast as the best 70's Ali.

 

Size can be negated to an extent but Usyk is 6'3, 220 pounds and the most skilled heavyweight in history apart from Holyfield and Ali (who was a bigger heavyweight in the 70s) He'd be huge compared to most of the 70s heavyweights

He was the same size against McCall but he still beat McCall who was on a good winning streak beforehand, even if he had to go through the trenches it was a world class win and McCall beat Maskaev afterwards.

Yes i do, i believe post prison is still h2h better than prime Frazier as long as it's not 99-2000s Tyson. Frazier has better stamina, left hook, workrate and more heart, that's all I can see. He would test Evander in different ways but he wasn't more durable. He wasn't as explosive or harder to time and rarely use any angles. Tyson was also a good body puncher. A 1996 Tyson is running through Fraziers win column apart from Ali. He would utterly destroy Jimmy Ellis and get Mathis out of there a few rounds earlier. If you disagree, who do you think would give 1996 Tyson more problems than they did Frazier apart from Ali ? I don't see it. Tyson himself might beat Frazier

Sure, but he still didn't hit as hard as Bowe, wasn't as strong, actually had less varied attacks and Frazier was just as hittable as Holyfield

Holyfield had a good beard, and relative to the vast majority of top guys in the 70s yes Holyfield did have good defense, he blocked and rolled with a lot of shots. Maybe not as good as Nortons but better than Quarrys and he had better offense. He was levels above Quarry in every facet

He was. 70s Ali was barely faster if that. Watch Holyfield vs Douglas.

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Holyfield would be considered a speedster in the 70s

They're an advantage. Frazier would be better if he used performance enhancing drugs in training camp all other factors remaining the same. But they had no regulation back then so theres a slight chance he did, you can never be too sure about that stuff

 

Joe would look like he ran into a chainsaw at the end but he stops Holy with some terrifying hooks and bomblike overhand rights in the 10th round.

 

Phil Jackson was, so Bonavena would be just fine.

 

The 90's had some great fighters but the myth building about it has lost control. Ancient Foreman was undisputed, Seldon held a title and ancient Holmes almost won one. From a guy who beat Lewis.

 

At one point, you had a 46 year old Foreman as the lineal champion, Frank Bruno as the WBC title holder, Bruce Seldon as the WBA title holder and Francois Botha as the IBF title holder. No wonder people were saying Tyson is still the best HW in the world even in prison and prayed for him to coma back and save the division.

 

Phil Jackson had better fundamentals than Bonavena

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If Foreman had beaten the elite HWs and hadn't lost to Morrison then he would've proven his era to be superior. But he didn't. Alex Stewart would've been a top contender rather than a fringe contender in the 60s

 

that's a bit of a bull**** argument. my nan had better fundamentals than bonavena.