Does Anyone Believe Joe Frazier Could Beat Sonny Liston?

No chance peak for peak.

 

Yes Liston is overrated. He doesn't fight like Foreman and Frazier would bulldoze Floyd Patterson. Liston would probably stop him late but he's not doing him like Foreman, no way.

 

When Liston was on top, there were a few quotes from boxing people that Sonny didn't like to get hit downstairs. Joe Frazier would certainly test that theory. But I think Liston was too powerful outside, too strong inside for Joe.

 

I decisively favour Frazier. I'd put money on it. Not a lot. But some. I've explained before that I think it's actually more likely how I view them, subjectively enough, that Frazier is a bad matchup for Liston, rather than vice versa, understanding the conventional wisdom, and that the Foreman fight is completely misleading people because of the tendency to find the closest analog to Foreman and while it is going to be Liston, it's still way off base. My suspicion is if we could really make it happen, it would surprise people how Frazier would unravel Liston and there'd be shock at the lack of size difference, the reach not actually helping him out at all, maybe hurting him, and the makeup of the two men showing one is just more of a junkyard dog than the other when the hurt is happening. And, granted, there's going to be hurt, and Frazier will take his share of it too.

He does not hit as hard, it's true, and he doesn't hit with the same selection and diversity of punches-also true-but I don't think it's going to be the decider. I get if someone else does, but I think it's going to be Frazier's smothering barrage of constant and quicker hooks that's going to wind up counting for more. I don't believe Sonny will know what to do with Joe Frazier. It's reasonable to go with convention on it, and I 'm not claiming it isn't. This is just my suspicion. And, since no has built one of the machines that would make it possible yet...I have nothing to lose but your respect. But I've made sure I don't have any, publicly, so that I can feel free to say things like this., when I really mean them.

 

"Joe Frazier beat better fighters than Sonny Liston."
"Joe Frazier beat all their common opponents ... Liston didn't."
Assuming one accepts the premise that a '71 Ali was better than a prime Liston, the same would ring true for Foreman. Frazier beat a better fight than Foreman, and also beat their common opponents... Foreman didn't.

Ken Norton also beat a better fighter than Foreman, and beat their common opponents (Ali and Young).... Foreman didn't.

Those facts did Norton and Frazier so much good against Foreman when it actuallu came time to step in the ring...... oh wait. It's almost like styles make fights.

"Liston was a classic frontrunner. When he fell behind, it was over for him. He never came from behind to win. Ever." Could this possibly be because he was behind in all of one fight that he lost? He was dead even with Ali on the cards in their first fight, ahead against Martin. He was only behind against Marshall who had previously been ranked (not sure if he was at the time) and far more experienced than a 7 fight Liston. He had his jaw broken early and still fought valiantly to lose an SD that could've gone either way.

According to your genius logic, Liston should be held in higher regard if he'd been outboxed and swept by Eddie Machen before landing a last second hail Mary right before the bell.

You are quite possibly the only poster I've ever encountered who's posts get WORSE over time as opposed to better.

 

I think Frazier would chase Liston out of the ring. This isnt some overrated fraud like Cleveland Williams.

 

I agree with this. I think the speed difference between the two will be noticeable and will help Frazier with the UD. I don't understand people's Foreman comparison. Liston is only 6'1 (if that) so it is only an inch and a half difference which obviously isn't much. Maybe if Liston was a couple inches taller he would resemble Foreman and I'd probably pick him because of the jab, size and chin. Two fighters that are almost the same size - I'm going with the one that is faster and more active.

 

The posters here don’t seem to know much about Sonny Liston. Foreman said he was a really bad man and only person that could back him up.
Throw out the Ali fights at least as far as the toughness. He fought fight with broken jaw early in his career and finished to the end. Watch his fights versus Big Cat Williams who was a stud for his day. Liston toughed it out and won big twice. The Ali fights something else was going on with the mob and /or the Black Muslims. Pretty sure he had to throw the second one.
Frazier was made to order for Liston though he was tough and very good. Take Bonavena who gave Frazier some trouble and compare him to Liston: Sonny was at least as quick but considerably more skilled clearly stronger much more powerful puncher taller heavier much longer reach. Frazier could be hit and what Sonny hit was always in trouble. Frazier would give him more trouble than he gave Foreman but would take too many blockbuster shots and get pounded in the end. I say slugfest for 2 rounds then the force of Listons shots would start to really take its toll. 5th round KO Frazier down several times.

 

Came back against C Williams.

 

Fraziers chin isn't that good. Bonavena nearly KO'd him, putting him down heavily twice. Ramos had him out on his feet momentarily.

He's dipping and rolling and hard to hit but he can be hit. His prime was over in the first Ali fight because he took too much from Ali that night and had to give everything to win.

Early Liston before his Ali losses would pulverise Joe, no question. The Liston of the Ali fights still wins. The post Ali fights Liston, 1966-1970 theoretically could have been an opponent for Joe but I think Joes handlers didn't fancy the fight. Liston was easy to swerve in those days and he had to wait a long time for his shot at Patterson. He was already considered the consensus champion a few years before he got the title.

That old past prime Liston is dangerous but he's visibly much slower and looks old.

I think Joe can get to him but Liston is comfortable fighting at all ranges. He will shorten up his hooks and throw bombs inside with no problems. Joe would have his hands full because Liston is the better technical fighter and Joe has to bully him to win which is very difficult. I don't recall seeing Liston bullied in a fight or forced back. If people are trying to force him back he will just cover up and have no problems standing his ground and bombing on the inside. I suppose you can look at Ali 1 but they are short blitzes from Ali and he is back on the move. He is never in a sustained front foot mode for long periods. Liston wasn't really the kind of guy you want to be in the pocket with and trying to "outman" or impose your will. His punches are extremely heavy. I'm not saying Joe can't do it but this isn't a Jerry Quarry situation where he can rip inside with Quarry all night and be on top for most of the action. Quarry had a tight left hook but he wasn't bringing what even 1966-1970 Liston was bringing.

Leotis Martin wasn't bullying Liston either, he was durable and staying in the fight, even though he got dropped himself. Liston slowed, got busted up by the jab, and then got timed by a right. It wasn't a case of Martin jumping on him and bullying him. Frazier wouldn't be fighting with the patience and length of Martin that night. Martin was also losing the fight before he caught Liston. Listons stamina just seemed to go and that would be my main concern vs Joe. Joe is coming for 15 rounds and the second that old Liston starts to feel the pace Joe will jump all over him.

So I give Joe a chance for sure and he should be favoured the longer the fight goes on. The first 4 rounds are extremely dangerous for him.

 

I love Joe but I gotta go with Sonny.
I don't think Joe's chin was the best in the world as he was dropped twice by Bonevana in his prime pretty much. I don't see why Sonny woudln't be able to put him down.

 

I'd hold Sonny Liston in higher regard and give him a better chance to beat Frazier if he ....

Beat better fighters than Frazier (which he didn't).
Dominated anyone Frazier couldn't dominate (which he didn't)
If he were a better champion than Frazier (which he wasn't).
If he showed any heart in fights that started to go sour for him (which he didn't)
If he didn't quit against Ali in fight one ... (Liston's corner tried to get him to fight on in fight one ... and he refused)
If he didn't take a dive in his fight against Ali the second time. (When did Joe ever take a dive?)
If he came back against any top late 60s contenders immediately after losing to Ali. (He didn't.)
If he didn't get his jaw broken and lose to a 180-pound journeyman he was supposed to walk over.
If he wasn't knocked cold by Leotis Martin, out, flat on his face ... by a guy who he had on the floor earlier in the fight.

When was Joe Frazier ever knocked cold by anyone, like Liston was by Leotis Martin?

Liston wasn't better than Frazier. Didn't have a better career. Didn't have a longer, better reign as champion. Didn't beat better fighters. Didn't even take on better fighters. Didn't have a better chin. Didn't have more power against better fighters. Didn't do better against common opponents.

There is nothing to show Liston would beat Frazier. Nothing.

You guys keep saying Liston would knock him out ... but any time Foreman dropped Frazier, he'd jump back up.

Frazier didn't end up flat on the floor, face down, or crawling around on the deck pretending he was hurt from a glancing blow, like we saw Liston do in fights.

And, for the life of me, I don't get these Liston-Foreman comparisons.

Just because teenage George Foreman said Liston backed him up sparring when he was a novice ... means SQUAT. But you guys just cling to it. George Foreman said his knees were shaking against Frazier, and a hook from Joe flew by his head and scared him to death. So what?

Liston didn't beat Foreman. Liston wasn't anything like Foreman. And Liston wouldn't have beaten Joe Frazier.

 

I can see a case for Frazier.

Foreman's unique style , wrecking ball upper , plus size and savage stopping power was a nightmare for Joe. Sonny was straight up and down , no special effects

 

No, let's not.

Sonny Liston was the reigning World Champion against a "just turned" 22-year-old, 8-1 underdog, who was floored by Henry Cooper in his previous fight, and arguably was outpointed by light heavyweight Doug Jones in the fight before that.

And Liston "quit" against him with just a third of the fight completed, even though his corner begged him to fight on.

Let's not throw them out.

Because Joe Frazier wasn't going to make Liston's life any easier in a fight between the two of them. On the contrary.