Does Anyone Believe Joe Frazier Could Beat Sonny Liston?

There wasn't a fighter active during Liston's time who would go toe to toe with him. It was generally conceded by everyone in and around boxing that you couldn't do that and survive. But that is exactly what Frazier would have to do.

 

First, 11 different guys went the distance with or beat Liston (or both). Some went the distance multiple times.

Ali, Leotis Martin, Marty Marshall (distance twice), Ponce de Leon, Bennie Thomas, Stanley Howlett, Johnny Summerlin (distance twice), Bert Whitehurst (distance twice), Eddie Machen, Billy Joiner, Neal Welch.

Second, the same was said about going toe-to-toe with Joe Frazier in his prime. And only six went the distance or beat Frazier - Ali, Foreman, Bonavena, and Bugner (all pretty durable chins), being four of them.

Foreman - 1 ko loss in 81 fights
Ali - 1 ko loss in 61 fights (Frazier floored him)
Bonavena - 1 ko loss in 69 fights
Bugner - 4 KO losses in 83 fights (Frazier floored him)

Levels. And Frazier was on another level above Liston.

 

Interesting so now the Bonavena fight and Fraziers suspect chin become relevant lmfao. This forum is ridiculous. Interesting how Liston is too big and strong for Joe but those same people would say Frazier beats modern Super heavyweights like Donovan Ruddock or Fabio Wardley without a second thought

 

People put Frazier down, and he always got up. Even against Foreman.

Bonavena dropped a 22-year-old Frazier in round 2 of their first fight. Frazier got up and won, then fought Bonavena again and beat him over 15 rounds. So, he shook it off in real time, and battered Bonavena over the next 23 rounds they fought. Not going down again.

When did Liston ever do that? Liston broke his jaw and lost that Marshall fight. That was the excuse for losing to a guy he was supposed to destroy. No amazing comeback that night. Didn't suck it up and win it. Then Liston quit against Ali only a third of the way thru their first fight. Not at the end of the fight. Not in the 13th or 14th rounds when he tried his hardest and failed. Only six rounds of 15 had gone by. And he refused to fight on. Then he took a dive in their return, or was KOed (take your pick). And he floored Martin, got unnerved the guy got up and fought back, and ended up getting flattened himself.

This isn't a guy who wins battles of attrition.

Liston is the only person between the two who went down face first and was knocked cold ... and was unconscious for minutes.

Liston was the only one between the two who quit on his stool only a third of the way through a title fight ... even though his corner was begging him to continue.

Liston is the only one between the two who took a dive.

Liston is the only one between the two to suffer a broken jaw against a journeyman light heavy and lose. And go the distance with the same guy two more times.

Between Frazier and Liston, Frazier isn't the guy with the "suspect" chin or "suspect" heart.

In a toe-to-toe slugfest, most people don't tend to go with the quitter who was the only one between the two to be knocked unconscious over the guy who always gets up and keeps fighting.

 

It’s not so hard to envisage Frazier being bounced about by Liston, the same way as he was twice, by Foreman.

 

Liston lost in his 8th pro fight and early in the fight of course had the broken jaw to contend with but reversed it with a tko win decking his opponent 4 times.

 

Liston lost once in his 8th fight then reversed it in his 10th then never lost another fight in his whole career other then the 2 to the goat Ali till as an old man Leotis Martin out lasted him. Ali had the perfect style and skills to beat him and the 2nd fight sonny almost certainly had to take a dive.

 

Because neither of those dudes are in the same zip code as Sonny Liston or have anything close to Frazier’s heart and gonads.

 

Joe Frazier only lost to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. He also beat Muhammad Ali.

Frazier didn't lose to anyone like Marty Marshall.
Frazier didn't get knocked out cold by anyone like Leotis Martin. (He wasn't knocked cold by anyone, Foreman included.)
Frazier didn't take a dive against Ali. (He beat him.)

Sonny Liston didn't beat Ali in two meetings. In fact, he arguably quit against him twice.

Sonny Liston didn't fight George Foreman.

I don't know where you guys get this Liston-Foreman thing, but Liston was nothing like Foreman. At all. They sparred together when George turned pro at 19.

Everyone who sparred with George Foreman WASN'T THEREFORE George Foreman.

Marty Marshall was a journeyman light heavyweight who was stopped a half-dozen times in his career. He beat Liston on points and broke his jaw. He also went the distance with Liston in their third fight. (That's a lot of time spent on a guy Liston should've wasted if he was as good as you guys say.)

Oscar Bonavena was a perennial heavyweight contender for nearly a decade. He was stopped once in 81 fights (by Ali).

When he was 22, Frazier outpointed Bonavena over 10. When Frazier was 24, he outpointed him over 15. He never lost to him.

There's no shame in NOT stopping Bonavena. But if you go the distance twice with Marty Marshall, AND even lose to him, and get your jaw broken, and it takes "three freaking fights" with Marty Marshall to settle matters ... that isn't good.

 

And it's not difficult to see Liston get his jaw broken, get knocked cold, or quit against Joe Frazier. Since all those things happened to Liston against guys who were lesser than Frazier or who Frazier beat.

 

Well Liston was alot more skillful than the likes of Wardley, Ruddock, so it's not always just about being a big strong guy.

But I've always thought that a fighter like Ruddock would be a very dangerous opponent vs Frazier.

Ruddock has "The Smash" a unique half uppercut/half hook which would be a dangerous weapon against a shorter bobbing and weaving opponent like Frazier.

Frazier for me is also a bit untested against big imposing KO punchers.

Frazier never fought the other real notable punchers of his era like Lyle, Shavers, M.Foster, etc.

And whilst Frazier had a good chin and a warriors heart i don't think his chin was granite.

Not that I'm saying Frazier would lose to every big Heavyweight who can punch. But Frazier is also as I said a bit untested against that type of opponent.

 

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That's journeyman light heavy Marty Marshall in the white trunks. That's who Liston fought three times, went the distance with twice, and lost to.

Joe Frazier knocked out one of the greatest light heavyweight champs in history Bob Foster in a round and a half. And Liston lost to Marty Marshall.

Joe Frazier floored and beat one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, Muhammad Ali. Sonny Liston quit against Ali twice.

Look at how low Marshall's right hand is. Joe Frazier would've knocked that guy out with a left hook in short order.

Just like Frazier floored Ali (who beat Liston twice). Just like Frazier stopped Eddie Machen, who Liston couldn't stop. Just like Frazier battered and stopped Jerry Quarry twice. Just like he battered and stopped Jimmy Ellis twice. Just like he battered and stopped George Chuvalo. And battered and stopped Doug Jones. Just like he battered and beat Oscar Bonavena twice.

Marty Marshall ain't George Foreman. Neither was Leotis Martin. And neither, I might add, was Sonny Liston.

Look at who Liston actually beat (or lost to), NOT who George BEAT.

Because Liston wasn't George. Not by a long shot.

 

Like I said, if you accept that FOTC Ali was better than Liston, then logically you’d have to see him as superior to Foreman too. Didn’t exactly do Frazier any favors when they actually faced each other.

Oh really? Recognize this?

These are your own words. You called Cleveland Williams a “very live underdog” against Frazier and even floated scenarios where he knocks Joe down repeatedly or stops him.

That’s not someone Frazier would “dominate,” let alone the way Liston did. In fact, by your own analysis, Williams had a better chance against Frazier than he did against Liston—which is a completely insane position.

Actually, that's debatable.

Frazier didn't become lineal until he beat Ali. It is one of the greatest wins of all time, (and imo number one).

However, Liston won the championship by dominating the reigning heavyweight champion, squashing him in a single round, then improved upon his performance in the rematch.

Patterson didn't just go away after that. As he proved, he had A LOT in the tank left. He stayed in the rankings every year, until he retired (except 1969 he was inactive) beating fellow contenders, regaining the number one spot, and would've been the first fighter to win the championship 3 times if not for such a blatant robbery against Ellis.

So yes, Liston's pair of first round KOs against him are among the best in heavyweight history and (combined) are arguably on par with the FOTC.

Frazier’s longer title reign may have had more to do with the fact that the beating he took in victory sidelined him for a year, and when he returned, he defended against two unranked no-names. Liston, by contrast, immediately defended against the number one contender and the GOAT—even while he himself wasn’t at his best.

So no, I don’t agree that it’s clear-cut that Frazier was a better champion than Liston. And even if he was, that doesn’t necessarily mean much in terms of head-to-head outcomes. Tyson was a better champion than Douglas. Louis was a better champion than Schmeling. Holyfield was a better champion than Bowe. You see where I’m going with this.

Again, he showed remarkable heart—fighting valiantly with a broken jaw early in his career against a far more experienced opponent, with a broken nose against Williams, and with a swollen-shut eye against Valdez.

Liston had a documented injury, and HIS CORNER stopped the fight. Liston himself wanted to go on.

In the wake of the fight came a spate of curiously defensive comment from the writers who had been so mistaken about the ability of Clay and the invincibility of Liston. As could be expected, there were cries of "Fix!" although it would be medically impossible to fix a fight by tearing a muscle in a fighter's arm. A team of eight doctors inspected Liston's arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed that it was too badly damaged for Liston to continue fighting. The torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the biceps, swelling and numbing the arm. From a tear like this, the blood seeps slowly through the tissues; thus Liston could fight awhile before the arm went dead. But his most effective weapon had been spiked, and although he wanted to fight on and, perhaps, could have, his manager, Jack Nilon, stopped the whole business fast. "I made the decision," he said later. "Before Sonny could protest, Willie and I stepped in front of him and waved the referee off. Sonny spit out his mouthpiece and cursed me and cursed Clay. 'I can beat that ******* one-handed," he said.

Cassius Clay: His fight future

Will have to continue in new post.