Does Anyone Believe Joe Frazier Could Beat Sonny Liston?

If Joe gets out of the early rounds Liston is in trouble. Liston used intimidation as a weapon .This is not going to work on Joe .Frazer feared no man .Great fight I think Frazer stops him late .

 

“I don’t remember.” I’m sure you don’t. Just like you don’t remember going on and on about Cleveland Williams’ power—citing multiple fighters like Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Ernie Terrell, and Roy Harris all calling him one of the hardest punchers they ever faced. Just like you don’t remember defending those knockouts, pointing out how durable Terrell was, and mocking anyone who questioned Williams’ power. And just like you don’t remember acknowledging that Williams had serious physical damage after being shot—only to now downplay it or act like it had little to no effect when it’s convenient for your argument. So no, it’s not that you “don’t remember.” It’s that you pick and choose what to remember depending on what helps your position in the moment. You:

Also you:

 

I was actually in the middle of laying out my argument when I came across someone who already made it better than I could—ironically, you.

This guy explains why trying to beat Liston by taking the fight to him and working inside is a recipe for disaster. He even points out that the man who eventually dethroned him did the exact opposite. What he leaves out is how Liston handled the last guy who actually tried that approach in his previous two fights.

But what’s really telling is that you claim there’s “no argument” for Liston—while your own post is literally outlining that trying to get inside, and going to the body, (Frazier's style) is not the way to beat Liston. So which is it? Because you’re simultaneously saying there’s no case for Liston, while laying out one yourself.

That’s not just inconsistent—it’s flat-out dishonest. But I expect nothing less from you.

And while we’re at it, explain how Liston supposedly gets stopped by Frazier in four rounds, yet Cleveland Williams is a “very live underdog” who pushes Frazier to a Holyfield–Bowe type trilogy.

Who should I believe—you or Foreman? Foreman has said himself that he modeled his style after Liston, and anyone who understands what they’re watching can see the similarities. Liston quite literally trained him, and Foreman has repeatedly spoken about how much he learned from him—especially the jab, which, if I recall, was a major factor in Frazier’s downfall.

No, you’re not just “here to talk boxing.” You’re here arguing in bad faith, and you’ve done it repeatedly by pushing positions you’ve already shown you don’t even believe. You’ve praised Cleveland Williams’ power extensively—citing multiple fighters like Foreman, Liston, and Terrell calling him one of the hardest punchers they ever faced. You’ve also acknowledged he wasn’t the same fighter after being shot. Yet now you downplay both his power and the impact of the shooting when it suits your argument.

You’ve also argued that Williams could be a “very live underdog” against Frazier—laying out in detail how he could hurt, drop, or even stop him. But now you act like Frazier would dominate him without issue.

And then there’s Liston—you’ve already explained that he was kept out of the rankings due to WBA politics, not because he was avoiding contenders. Yet now you’re implying he didn’t face top opposition post-Ali as if that reflects on him. That’s not consistency. That’s saying whatever fits your argument in the moment.

Given that Frazier was more experienced when he was dropped and nearly stopped by Mike Bruce, it’s hard to see how an even greener version of him is supposed to beat a fighter like Marty Marshall, who was at least in and around the top ten.

 

Thanks for this, people love to downplay Liston for some reason.

 

Joe might be a bit underrated, but everything points to him being Liston's victim. Shorter, more open-fighting, not as strong, and less versatile. Liston's chin also seemed stronger. Joe wouldn't be able to apply pressure. I think it would be as brutal as the Kingston fight, although Joe would have fought longer. Especially FOTC Joe.

 

No, you’re not getting off that easily. You very clearly implied Liston ducked those contenders with “If he came back against any top late 60s contenders… (He didn’t.)”

If you already knew the circumstances, then why phrase it in a way that puts the blame on him? That’s exactly the kind of disingenuous framing you keep resorting to.

Nice attempt to change the subject. The point was your implication that Liston ducked contenders after Ali—something you’ve already shown you know isn’t true.

Liston had under two years of total boxing experience when he fought Marshall—two years earlier, he was still in prison. At that same point, Frazier wasn’t even a pro yet, he was still working through the amateurs.

So explain how that version of Frazier is supposed to handle a guy in and out of the top ten.

Frazier didn’t fight anyone remotely that good until he had more than double the experience, yet you’re holding Liston to a standard Frazier himself never came close to meeting.

Agreed, he didn't need a third fight against Foreman because he got dribbled like a basketball again, rendering a trilogy meaningless. Using this genius logic, Liston wouldn't have "needed three fights to settle matters with anyone" if Marshall knocked him out in their second bout.

Liston was only stopped by two fighters: Ali and Martin—Martin at an age when Frazier had already been retired for years.

As for Frazier, the fact that Foreman was the only real puncher he faced in that era probably explains why he was stopped only by him.

 

Try rereading my post. I said he was anywhere from 37 to 40—possibly even older if the 1950 census is accurate. Stop twisting my words and focus on the point. Let’s play devil’s advocate and accept the 1932 birthday claim (which isn’t supported by any census or other records). That still makes him 37 when he lost to Martin—well past Frazier’s retirement age—besides embarrassing himself against a fighter who never even cracked the top 20. He only earned a “draw” thanks to extremely generous judging. So please tell me: if he couldn’t even beat a Cummings with the refs giving him extra points for being 'Smokin Joe how on earth is he supposed to beat a legitimate contender?

I honestly don’t know what point you’re trying to make. Do you realize how much can change in 15 years? Frazier’s entire career didn’t even last that long.

Biological age is meaningless without the experience to back it up. Liston had less than two years in the ring when he faced Marshall, while Frazier already had eight years under his belt when he fought Quarry.

A quitter never beat Rocky Marciano.
A dive taker never beat Rocky Marciano .
And a guy who lost to freaking light heavy journeyman never beat Rocky Marciano.

And Liston was all of those.
And yet.

Who also got dropped early by others? Riddle me this.

 

I would be very surprised but because of the Ali fights not shocked. The problem with weathering the early storm to victory is that Liston isn't Ali and Bugner hes Foreman. Under the old rules there weren't 10-8 rounds which makes it easier but thats only math. Frazier still needs to survive and win the rounds. Simply getting out of the early rounds doesn't make Fraziers job any easier then it did with Foreman the 2nd time.

Old Liston would have held his lead against Leotis Martin if not getting hit with the punch of the decade. Thats the closest thing to a competitve full fight Liston ever had. We don't really know how prime Liston handles that scenario but I don't see a weakness there to be exploited.

Fraziers best chance is to come out of the gate strong and be in a situation where a single shot from Liston won't matter if Frazier survives. If peak Frazier had fought Liston in 1968 or 1969 this is the most likely outcome. Earlier on this would be less likely because Liston can match Fraziers workrate but if Fraziers going to win this is the path.

 

Even if the 1971 Frazier fought the 1969 Liston he be in big danger early. Martin boxed and tried to stay away and outlasted the older Sonny. But remember in the early going Liston was giving him a beating. Frazier smaller and lighter than Sonny would be coming straight at Liston who was a skilled boxer in addition to be be a powerhouse. If Frazier fought like he did against Foreman the 2nd fight he probably survives and outlasts the older Sonny but the prime Frazier never thought he had to fight that way. He went right at Foreman with disastrous results.
Prime Liston 1962 vs prime 1971 Frazier ends in 5 rounds after a ferocious brawl with Frazier down several times and being stopped and Liston the winner.