Who's historically greater at HW: Liston or Usyk?

Sonny Liston !

He is the only one who terrified Foreman in a ring, the first who had a rivalry with Ali, and he beat Floyd Patterson twice, who is still more remarkable on his own than Tyson Fury, Wilder, and Joshua.

 

Depends what your criteria is. Liston had a much more extensive heavyweight career, but some of the cruisers Usyk beat dwarf most of Liston's best heavyweight opponents.

Usyk's six best are:

FuryX2
JoshuaX2
DuboisX2

Sorry, but if we are talking about head to head, or even historical significance, that is head and shoulders above...

PattersonX1
Machen
Foley
WilliamsX2

I am going to say Usyk but if someone wants to say Sonny based on the fact that fighters are judged by what they accomplish in their own era, a lot of Usyk's best wins are cruiser, and they like Sonny's quantity over Usyk's best, I'm not mad.

USYK'S BEST OPPONENTS
Glowacki- 6'0", 199, WBO Cruiser Champ
Mchunu- 5'11", 198.5, #12 WBO, #14 IBF
Hunter- 6'2", 199.25, #9 WBO Cruiser
Huck- 6'2", 198, #9 WBO, former champ
Briedis- 6'1", 199, WBC Cruiser Champ
Gassiev- 6'3.5", 198, IBF/WBA Cruiser Champ
Bellew- 6'3", 199, #1 WBO, , #4 WBA cruiser, former champ
Chisora- 6'1.5", 255.5, #8 WBO, #10 IBF, #11 WBA, all at heavyweight
Joshua- 6'6", 240 IBF/WBA/WBO Heavyweight Champ
Joshua- 6'6, 244.5, #4 WBO, #4 IBF #4WBA, Former Champion
Dubois- 6'5", 233, #8 WBO Heavweight (and mando somehow)
Fury-- 6'9", 262, WBC Heavyweight Champ
Fury- 6'9", 281, WBC #1, WBO #1, WBA #3,
Dubois- 6'5", 243, IBF Champion

LISTON'S BEST
Patterson- 6'0", 189, World Champion
Patterson- 6'0", 194, #1 NBA contender
Foley- 6'1",198.5, #3 NBA contender, #1 Ring Magazine
Williams- 6'2", 215.5 Unranked
Willlams- 6'2", 210, # NBA 10 contender
Machen- 6'0", 196, #2 NBA Contender, #3 Ranked Ring Magazine
Valdez- 6'3", 211, #2 Ring Magazine
Summerline 6'1", 201, Unranked
Summerline 6'1", 206, Unranked
Marshall, 6'0.5", 18, Unranked
Marshall, 6'0.5", 179, "Honorable Mention" at LHW
Wepner, 6'5", 228, Unranked
Clark, 6'3", 215, #5 NBA contender
Rischer, not listed, 200, Unranked
Bethea, 6'0", 204, #8 Ring magazine
Westphal, 5'7.5", 195, Unranked
Besmanoff, 5'11", 201, Unranked
Harris, 6'0", 195, #6 NBA, #7 Ring Magazine
Dejohn, 6'2.5", 202, #9 ranked NBA, #8 Ranked Ring Magazine

 

Liston fought in a time when Boxing was incredibly popular and he no doubt will be remembered forever for his intimidating nature but Uysk is the superior fighter and I would bet the house on him if they ever fought head to head.

 

IMO Liston gets rated too highly on these lists with a lot of people having him top 10.

Then again maybe Uysk too IMO his lack of heavyweight fights hurt him a little too.

 

Charles Sonny Liston,,,

 

Usyk and it’s not especially close.

Also, it’s dumb to erase Usyk’s cruiser resume when those guys were bigger than most of Liston’s opponents.

 

This is all rosy-hued and self-referential mythic theism.

On paper, and in results, Usyk is the more impressive and more important fighter as demonstrated several times above.

 

I think Usyk's top wins would spank Liston's top wins. In fact, to be frank, Fury, Joshua and Dubois stand a decent chance of cleaning up Liston himself.

 

Whereas I actually agree with you, I have fought it ad nauseam and those who think cruiser and heavy are discretely segregated will fight to the death, and will get downright nasty about it. End of the day, you don't need it, because if size matters, Liston's wins are not in Usyk's league. Especially when you ask who had more title defenses. Any one of Usyk's five would also knock out Floyd Patterson in 1.

 

For me the problem is Uysk's crusierweight achivements are seen as a separate P4P feat.

But I am not massively against adding his crusierweight fights with his heavyweights fights but it sort of confuses things a little. Also begs the question do we do the same thing with Holyfield.

 

That's what I am saying. And, I don't buy it for a number of reasons, but I am not going to argue it here because I am tired of doing so, and it won't change a single mind. What is more, it isn't necessary, as Usyk has some competitive advantage even with only seven high quality heavyweight fights.

 

Liston’s heavyweight opposition was the same size or perhaps smaller than Usyk's cruiserweight opposition. In Usyk's day, a cruiserweight opponent may weigh in at 199 a day prior and be in the ring at 209/210. In Liston’s day, there were same day weigh ins so a heavyweight opponent that weighed in at 199 was 199 in the ring.

 

Many light heavyweights are bigger than Liston's opponents