Who Does The Best Against Prime Ali? (Poll Included)

Or you weren’t following the full context and went with the least charitable interpretation just to take a shot.

The discussion has been about Wladimir Klitschko vs Muhammad Ali the entire time, so pretending it was a generic point about “someone” is just ignoring the context.

This is exactly the kind of debate-bro tactic where you fixate on wording instead of engaging with the actual argument. If you want to discuss the fight, do that. Otherwise it’s just semantics.

 

Prime Frazier beat him but Ali may still have been a little rusty though he had 2 fights after 3 1/2 year layoff. Also many questioned the decision based on rounds. In any case this was a good but not best Ali. I wouldn’t want to bet against the version that dominated Terrell.
Overall prime Ali beats prime Frazier 5 out of 6 times.
Style wise some others could be good Fury Usyk Tyson Holyfield Bowe Klitschkos but why not just go with the goat Lennox Lewis. For my money at least 4 out of 5 times prime Lewis beats prime Ali.

 

Ok, I'll explain to you what transpired again, bit by bit, this time.

You asked Markus how Ali couldn't out jab someone taller than him with a longer reach.

Markus replied asking you if you were claiming Ali couldn't out jab someone taller. A tip for future reference - Markus added "LOL" to his question. This was a clue, if one was needed (it shouldn't have been), that he was asking in a literal sense.

You responded "not consistently without getting hit more in return".

Markus replied advising that Ali has out jabbed someone taller than him with a longer reach.

This isn’t about my opinion or yours. It's about which of us understood what question Markus was asking and it's a fact that I understood it properly and you misunderstood it. I suspect you'd be the only poster in the entire history of this forum who misunderstood it.

 

Again you're ignoring the context. The discussion was always about Wlad vs Ali. Obviously Ali has outjabbed taller fighters before, that’s not the point. The point is whether he can do it consistently against Wlad specifically. That was the original point I was responding to. Treating that as a general claim about “any taller fighter” is just ignoring the context to get an easy dunk which seems like all you're actually capable of doing these days. Get a new hobby.

 

Lets be clear about what you are arguing here.

Are you saying that by asking if you believe its unrealistic for Ali to "outjab someone taller than him with a longer reach", Markus meant "outjab Wlad"? Because if that's your argument, we can ask him and find out definitively which of us is correct.

 

We’re discussing Wlad vs Ali. Whether he said “someone” or not doesn’t change the point being made in that context. Turning it into a literal wording debate just avoids the actual discussion.

 

Why are you afraid of answering the question?

Do you think Markus meant "someone" or "Wlad"?

 

He said “someone,” but the discussion was clearly about Wlad vs Ali, so the point was being made within that context. Either way it doesn’t change anything obviously Ali has outjabbed taller fighters before. The question that we have been debating is whether he can do it consistently against Wlad specifically.

 

C'mon fella, it's not a difficult question. I'm genuinely interested in understanding what your argument is. It's not clear to me if you are:

1. Still, at this juncture, arguing that Markus's question was asked in the context you keep referring to. I.e. his question was intended to ask you if you thought Ali could out jab Wlad; OR

2. You now accept that Markus was literally asking you if you thought Ali could land jabs on "someone" taller, rather than specifically Wlad, but you're saying you didn’t realise it at the time because you believe it was outside the context of the wider discussion.

 

Neither. He said “someone,” but the discussion was clearly about Wlad vs Ali, so the answer was given in that context.

 

Ok, given you won't give a direct answer to that question, lets try it another way. Do you think that by asking if it's unrealistic for "Ali to land jabs on a taller opponent with a longer reach", Markus's question was intended to ask you?:

1. If you believe it unrealistic for Ali to land jabs on someone taller with a longer reach; Or

2. If you believe it unrealistic for Ali to land jabs specifically on Wlad;

 

It’s 1 he said “someone.” But in the context of Wlad vs Ali, the answer was clearly about that matchup, not a general claim about any taller fighter. Treating it that way just ignores the context.

 

But this is how he literally fought against Haye and Williamson so this section of your argument makes no sense. He was walking them down behind the jab almost all night, problem is Ali would be in constant motion compared to those two, he was better at range, faster with his feet and his jab, more agile, wasn't a natural counter puncher like Haye, more awkward to hit and time, and he had higher workrate and stamina. Wlad wouldn't be dictating the space when his punch selection is so limited Ali would see more and more of his shots coming down the stretch because Klitschko is perhaps the most basic fighter on this list, actually more simplistic with his approach than Liston, he's just way bigger. He stepped back to keep distance, yet he still got hit numerous times in his career while stepping back. You're acting like Ali has no chance out befuddling the robotic Klitschko it's a bit strange

Feints will make Wlad a lot more gunshy because he's a better safe than sorry fighter. Ali will literally slow Wlads pace down by disrupting his rhythm and then score with his jabs and occasional power shots/slip most of Wlads oncoming punches aka the jab, the right cross, the left hook which is all he throws. He doesn't punch in combinations and doesn't even go to the body. Haye used less movement and wasn't jabbing as often as Williamson because he was looking for positions to counter punch, that's probably why he didn't fare as well, I don't buy the excuses about Wlad being a different fighter he was already working with Steward by the time of this fight and his style didn't look any different, he had already turned into a super cautious behind the jab type Klinchko

"You’re also assuming Wlad becomes too hesitant to control the fight, but even when he was cautious, he still dictated range with the jab. That’s the key issue here."

So all my points are just going to fly out the other ear lol. You literally just said "even when he was cautious he dictated range, thats the key issue here"

You are telling all of us you have no intention of absorbing information and addressing how Ali can get around Klitschko and his robotic nature. No matter what we tell you, despite all of Alis abilities, you just assume Ali can't do anything and will refuse to listen to anything anyone has to say before falling back on the presumption that Ali has no routes to victory. The real problem is Klitschko stepping back, but he's gotten caught going backwards and has gotten caught with speedy punches that aren't telegraphed, and has gotten KD by slower guys. So has Ali but Alis chin is in another dimension to Wlads and he's going to be using the ring and more angles backpeddling than anyone Wlad has beat and he's a better jabber tyan anyone Wlad has beat. The reverse is true but Ali stylistically never had serious problems with taller jabbers like Bugner and Terrell, and unlike Bugner Klitschko is going to try and walk Ali down terminator style using a total of 3 different punches and no combinations instead on getting on his toes and trying to make Ali get on his front foot. But for some reason the Haye example matters more than these to you

If anything, it's Klitschko who needs proof he can operate at a fast pace while getting fainted to oblivion ala Fury. We know for a fact Ali has shown better workrate and stamina than Klitschko when pushed to work much harder than Normal, Wlad keeping a distance while trying to walk ali down with a low/moderate workrate is almost tailor made for Ali. But i know you're just going to tell me that Klitschko wouldn't need to work hard because he would just dictate the pace and stay at range and Ali wouldn't be able to have any success because he's smaller lol

 

I won't interfere in the rest of your discussion since I am enjoying reading you and themaster458 go at it but I will on that one segment I just say I think it's clear that Wlad improved after the Williamson fight. Wlad was just starting out with Steward in 2004. We saw after that point how he dominated a number of fighters better or comparable to those who troubled him most earlier for the most part.