Who Does The Best Against Prime Ali? (Poll Included)

I respect where you are coming from but it’s the job of the camp to hype up their fighter going into a major championship fight. Even if they see signs of decline, they are not going to publicly admit it. They are instead going to push the idea that he is ready to win. I am personally skeptical that his camp actually believed that after being stopped by Vitali and losing to Chambers, he was magically going to beat Wlad.


Wlad was always very hittable. His defensive improvements were primarily due to the German refs allowing him to get away with extraordinary amounts of clinching and leaning. Dude was pushing and shoving fighters much shorter than him like Povetkin or Haye. He should have been disqualified at least once.

 

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the behaviour at 0:55 is just appalling Wlad had 3 inches on Haye, was heavier, harder hitting and yet he is pushing the smaller man to the ground just disgraceful. I haven’t even mentioned the Povetkin fight where he deserved to be dq’d

Truth is dude was always hittable. His defense was never elite. He relied on German refs who basically allowed him to get away with disqualifying behaviour. If he genuinely improved so massively, he wouldn’t need to engage in such illegal tactics to defend himself vs dudes 3-5 inches shorter than him.

 

Haye lunges in there not the best example. In fact he did this multiple times throughout the fight.

But there was one in the 12th round were Haye did buzz Wlad and Wlad held on pretty noticeably to be fair to you here.

 

So should Ali if you wanna be consistent

 

Nope. Ali never had a performance as appalling as the Povetkin fight. Wlad took things to such an extreme level, he turned a lot of fans off heavyweight boxing.

Thank god for Fury and Joshua ending that awful reign and Usyk emerging as a clean fighter.

 

Ali wasn't much better in Frazier II. Also: you fight as the ref let you. If your strategy works and you don't get warned, why would you change it? And the ref was picked by Pov's team and the fight was in Moscov as they won the purse bids.

Wlad's fights were being watched by tens of millions of people, he only turned American fans off, cause he kept beating their best fighters. And his reign was one of the greatest ever, whether you like his style or not.

 

Do you understand what a reach advantage actually does? It creates a range where Wlad can land and Ali can’t. Hand speed and footwork help, but you still have to enter that range to land.

Neither Bugner nor Terrell tried to control long range. They gave it up and let Ali dictate the fight, which is why his jab and movement worked so well against them. Wlad doesn’t fight like that.

David Haye isn’t the same level as Ali, but he shows what happens when a mobile, outside fighter tries to work at range against Wlad. He used movement and feints early, but couldn’t consistently get into range or keep his offense going because Wlad kept resetting him with the jab which is why had had to rely on counter punching to have any success.

Williamson isn’t a great example either. That was an earlier version of Wlad before he developed his jab and his style, and most of Williamson’s success came when Wlad overcommitted, which he largely stopped doing later on.

When someone tries to operate at range against Wlad, their output gets limited and they struggle to build offense. How is Ali consistently getting into range and keeping his offense going without getting reset that’s the part you keep skipping over.

You’re answering a different question. I’m asking how Ali consistently sustains offense without being reset, and you keep listing his attributes or turning it back onto Wlad.

I’ve already explained the mechanism. Wlad keeps the fight at range, scores with the jab, and resets when needed. That’s how he limits output and controls rounds. Saying Ali is faster or more mobile doesn’t explain how that overcomes it consistently. Ali can have success in moments, but that isn’t the same as sustaining offense over rounds.

So how does Ali consistently get into range, land, and keep his offense going without Wlad re-establishing distance and going back to the jab?

 

He had plenty especially in his later career people just ignored it because he's Ali. The 2nd Frazier fight is especially egregious. But he also grabbed Foreman a lot in their fight whenever Foreman came close. Even in his prime he was quite physical with Patterson in their first fight but of course lot of people ignore that or forget about it (something tells me lot of people haven't watched the full fight).

 

Wlad has a 3 inch reach advantage if they had similar speed, defense, footwork, style then for the most part Wlad would have more room to hit Ali and not get hit, but this isn't the case.

You're entire point is Wlad is bigger and if he steps back Ali can't touch him no matter his skillset which is pretty funny

He has been tagged numerous times by shorter fighters and even dropped, I am not buying your simplistic explanation that Ali just can't touch him at all from mid range or long range and then get touched when even Haye landed.

This is a complete lie using height and reach against Ali was Bugners entire gameplan as a matter of fact Bugner was utilizing a lot more movement than Klitschko would typically use.

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The fact you said neither of them tried to establish distance partially discredits your perception. It's just completely false.

Terrell couldn't outjab him from range, he tried to use his size to walk Ali down and push the jab out but he was unsuccessful because Ali outsped him, outworked him, out maneuvered him, kept him turning.

Alis output wouldn't get lowered drastically unless Klitschko were trying to box him on the backfoot, but he wouldn't.

Haye isn’t as mobile is Ali and wasn't looking to be, thats the part you skip over. The reason he got shut down is not because he couldn't land any jabs and was forced to constantly readjust after missing, everyone usually readjusts after missing a punch, even Klitschko would readjust after missing a punch. It's because Haye is a counter puncher who was looking for opportunities that never came as Klitschko kept the jab in his face. He was waiting too much and also had been knocked out before which made him more reserved.

Haye is not a good jabber, he wasn't using many feints, wasn't as mobile as a 60s Ali, didn't have as accurate or as straight of a 1-2, leaps in his punches more, doesn't pivot as sharply and his right hand counter punch arguably isn't better

Who's resetting Ali ? If Ali throws a right hand, a 2 punch combination and misses then that's that, Ali would just readjust but this isn't a real problem, it doesn't score points for Klitschko and Wladimir isn't a counter puncher, he isn't even a body puncher and doesn't thow in combination. The farther he is the easier it will be for Ali to evade any oncoming punches and the closer he is the better chance Ali has to to land since all Klitschko does is move his feet, he doesn't move his head. Ali can consistently get into range by stepping into his jab, flicking it out to gauge distance better, feint to find Wlads patterns, punch off of those ruses, keep shifting and feinting to lower Wladimirs workrate by breaking his rhythm and making him more tentative, slip Klitschkos jab or move out of range so he doesn't score with it often. Ali can keep moving around the ring while feinting so Wlad can't position himself power shots and keep himself in the fight at long range. I think the fight is close with Ali showing better highlights due to his combination punches, his superior speed and agility. Klitschko would be the aggressor but his punch selection is quite limited

I am telling you how Ali can outland Klitschko, i have given you the mechanisms. You just dismiss them and then say Wlad is bigger and will move away so Ali can't land anything. It's oversimplified, you keep saying the same thing and don't actually address anything not to mention you were spreading misinformation about Bugners approach against Ali. Wladimir has been caught and dropped by shorter fighters before. Even Haye landed right hands despite his poor output lol

 

That’s not what I’m saying at all. Of course Ali can land fighters have landed on Wlad before. The point is consistency. Landing occasionally isn’t the same as sustaining offense over rounds against someone controlling range with the jab. A reach advantage on its own isn’t everything, but when it’s combined with a style built around maintaining that distance, it becomes a real problem. So again, how is Ali consistently getting into range, landing enough to win rounds, and keeping his offense going without being reset?

Bugner had the size and reach, but he didn’t consistently enforce long-range control. He spent a lot of time going backwards and reacting rather than dictating distance with the jab. That’s why Ali was able to take over the jab exchanges and control the pace. That’s different from Wlad, whose whole style is built around maintaining that range and resetting it when it breaks down. Having reach and using it consistently are two different things.

Being a great jabber doesn’t automatically mean you can overcome another elite jab, especially one combined with a reach advantage and a style built around controlling distance. Ali had real issues at times dealing with strong, disciplined jabs, Ken Norton is a clear example of that. So why is Wlad’s jab and range control suddenly something Ali is just able to bypass consistently?

This is a better answer than before, but you’re still treating resets like they only matter if Wlad scores directly off them. They matter because they break Ali’s offense and force him to rebuild his position over and over. That absolutely affects how many rounds he can win.

You’re also still assuming Ali can just keep stepping into range, slipping the jab, feinting, and getting his own work off without explaining why Wlad’s jab and distance control wouldn’t keep disrupting that. Saying Wlad isn’t a counter puncher doesn’t really answer it, because he doesn’t need to be one if the jab is already controlling the fight.

So the issue still isn’t whether Ali can land sometimes. It’s whether he can do it often enough, clean enough, and consistently enough over rounds while Wlad keeps putting the fight back where he wants it.

 

Liston had a reported 84 inch reach (even if it was 82 1/2) Ali 79 yet Sonny was out jabbed. Reach is very important but there are other factors. Speed of foot and hand and overall skill and IQ can overcome a reach advantage. Prime Ali had those things over anyone he ever fought except possibly Holmes.

 

Like the Holyfield that fought Douglas? Footwork, blinding speed, body work. That guy could beat Ali.

 

I already told you. You haven't addressed anything I've said. Please I encourage you to go back to my previous post and actually debate that part.

It breaks Alis offense ? By stepping back or ? He can make Ali miss when constantly stepping out of range, that's about it. This won't discourage him however. Ali doesn't need a bunch of fast flurries or combinations to win and Wlad has been landed on and has kissed the canvas about 10 times. The straight right punch is probably most effective against him beyond the uppercut. That will be partially successful

You're putting to much stock into Ali "resetting" It wouldn't mean anything for Wlad when Ali reestablishes a position on the backfoot if Wlad isn't taking advantage immediately.

I believe you are exaggerating a bit. What happens after Ali resets ? Nothing. Ali would typically reset after throwing a combination hit or miss anyway. The jab, moving away and clinching is what he typically uses to reset his opponents and stop sustained offense but he can still be hit and hurt we know this and he usually only clinches against fighters lunging in. I already explained how Ali can evade the taller mans jab or jab with Klitschko since he's more agile and can feint to disrupt Wlad more than Wlad can disrupt him or he could simply overcommit with the jab and step into it to increase the odds of landing it since Wlad doesn't counter punch and his body can still be consistently hit with jabs. Ali can actually overcommit with every punch and the only thing Wlad would do is clinch or back away. That doesn't score points or stop Ali from darting around, throwing punches, shifting and using angles

You claimed Bugner wasn't trying to control range at all, now you backtrack ?

Here's your problem, because Bugner wasn't effective against Ali at boxing from a distance and trying to maintain range, you frame it as if he wasn't enforcing distance and long range boxing consistently or at all. He was. That's all Bugner was doing but he got outboxed.

Bugner did attempt to control the distance between him and Ali with his long jab, his straight punches and movement were "mechanisms" to stay at range. If he tried to walk Ali down with the long jab it would've been Ernie Terrell 2 and Ali would've had an even easier time because his forte was backpeddling.

Employing lateral movement + measuring and scoring with the jab to command space between you and your opponent is an effective form of "maintaining range" and it's typically a harder puzzle to crack. It feels you are grasping at straws a bit. He wasn't as good as Wlad but Williamson nor Haye were as good as Ali. Plus Haye is a counter puncher at nature.

Ken Norton does not fight like Wladimir, his jab and style is not like Wlads, he was a crouching pressure fighter, his body punching was a big problem, his volume was a problem, his counter punching was an issue, he moved his head unlike Wlad. That problem was a hell of a lot more complex than his jab and Norton isn't a better jabber than Foreman and Liston. But since we keeping bringing up low lights, Wladimir struggled with 6'3 Williamsons constant movement getting dropped with a counter right, couldn't cope with Furys eradic style and his shifting and got dropped 3 times against 6'1 Peter. Im not going to mention his 3 losses earlier in his career, but it does show his stamina is very questionable if forced to work harder than usual and he could unravel in a 15 round fight. Ali may knock him out late

"It's whether he can do it often enough, clean enough and consistently enough over rounds"

He actually can. This fight is close, i can't see a blow out the way you do. Usyk and Mike Tyson present more challenges than Wlad. You still haven't explained why Wlad would be a harder fight than those 2 beyond size

 

I think this is where we’re talking past each other. You’re treating resets like they only matter if Wlad immediately scores off them, but that’s not their purpose.

When Wlad resets, he’s putting the fight back at his preferred range, the end of his jab. From there, he can start controlling distance again and forcing Ali to work his way back in. That means Ali isn’t building sustained offense he’s constantly having to re-enter range, deal with the jab again, and re-establish position. That directly affects how much he can land over rounds. Saying Wlad doesn’t counter punch or throw combinations doesn’t really change that, because he’s already controlling when exchanges happen with the jab. So the issue isn’t whether Ali can get in or land at times it’s whether he can stay there long enough to build consistent offense without being forced back out repeatedly. That’s the part I don’t think you’ve really addressed.

Bugner did use lateral movement and his jab, but that doesn’t mean he was consistently enforcing long-range control. There’s a difference between attempting to box at range and actually dictating it.

Even in other fights like vs Greg Page, he often uses the jab to close distance, ends up on the inside, and relies on clinching rather than maintaining space. Against Muhammad Ali, he wasn’t able to keep the fight at the end of his jab consistently, which is why Ali could take over the exchanges and control the pace.

That’s the distinction I’m making. Using the jab and movement to try to maintain range isn’t the same as consistently enforcing it over rounds. That’s where someone like Wlad is different his whole style is built around keeping the fight there and resetting it when it breaks down.

I agree Norton doesn’t fight like Wlad, that wasn’t the point. The point was that Ali has shown vulnerability to fighters who can disrupt his rhythm and prevent him from controlling range which is exactly what Wlad would do.

Bringing up Wlad’s losses doesn’t really answer what I’m asking either. Every fighter has weaknesses, but the question here is how the styles interact.

Saying “he actually can” isn’t really answering the question that’s just the conclusion. I’m asking how it actually plays out over rounds.

And on the Usyk and Tyson point, I actually agree they bring more variety. The difference is they engage more. Usyk uses angles and combinations, and Mike Tyson has to come forward to be effective. That creates exchanges and opportunities.

Wlad is different. His whole style is built around controlling distance, minimizing exchanges, and resetting the fight when it gets into a range he's not comfortable with. He doesn’t need to engage in the same way. That’s why I see him as a harder matchup. It’s not just size it’s that Ali has to repeatedly work his way into range and build offense without being allowed to stay there all the while being picked off by Wlad's jab. Overall he would have less opportunity to work then he would against Tyson or Usyk hence why I would say its a harder matchup.

 

It's Wlad and it's not even close. Frazier won one of three. Wlad would KO Alit three of three.

The thread is over.