Is Foreman’s “masterful ring cutting ability” a myth?

These guys all have double digit runs of wins in title fights. Foreman isn’t in their company.

 

Yes, I think Foreman's 'excellent' ability to cut an angle in the ring was mostly myth. I first became familair with this idea with the materials from the build up to the Foreman vs. Ali fight, where they discussed his 'new ability' to cut the ring off while showing him shuffling around. He didn't look like much of an angle cutter then, and he never did for me. Foreman appeared to just wade in where he needed to get to. He was a heavy hitter, tall, physical and had good technique in other areas which allowed him to get the job done.

Foreman found great success even without the best footwork. Foreman didn't need to find a perfect angle on his opponent to make a KO happen. Alternatively, his opponent could hit him perfectly many times without much immediate effect. Foreman also had many great techniques both offensively and defensively. He had a nice jab, straight punches, uppercuts, winging hooks to the body, and he placed his punches well when he threw with intention. Defensively he could use a straight post arm, long forearm blocks both front and side, and he might just shove you out of the way.

Against Ali and Young his problem wasn't so much cutting off the ring, it was gassing out and having extended stretches of poor strategy. Foreman overexerted himself and got picked apart.

The fighters of the 1990s were able to maintain their range on Foreman more effectively than the 1970s era fighters. Whether this was purely a result of Foreman's age is impossible to determine. Against Stewart, Schulz, and Morrison, George found himself walking into punches without getting in position to return anything for relatively long stretches. So yeah, the 'masterful' footwork was a myth and it hurt him a couple times later in his career. But he was still awesome and who knows, maybe he just got old.

 

His big wins and historic comeback is enough to put him in the top 5 even if he didn’t have many title defences.
Both his titles he won from unbeaten champions.
It’s only Ali that stopped him from having probably more title wins, Ali would have done that to anyone.

 

Why do title defences necessarily matter that much?
I.e Duran and Hearns, three title defences between them, but it’s not ‘speculative’ that they are top 5 welters ‘head to head’, they are top 5 welters to any sane fan. They just had Ray Leonard as their main rival, like Foreman had Ali.

 

Do people go "oh he lost to so and so and therefore he doesn't have the skill" He didn''t lose to ali because he couldn't cut off the ring and hit him. It was because Ali beat the **** out of him from the ropes because he exposed himelf to get hit and eventually got tired. Ali was not laying on the ropes letting George Punch himself out.

The reason he didnt cut of the ring against Young was because his style changed. Look at his last 3 fights before Ali, then look at his fight with Lyle for instance. It is not until George gets in real trouble he decided to slug it out

 

Foreman was a master ring cutter off'er.
Young was clung to him like a mollusk.
Young evading him on his feet - that's a real myth.

 

He only has 3 big wins: Frazier, Norton and Moorer. He wasn't the only one to beat those guys too. The rest of his resume is not at all spectacular.

Would you give him a Top 5 spot from his career in the 70's? Of course not. Not even Top 10. In his second career he only beat Moorer. It doesn't elevate him to Top 5, even if he did it while 45.

 

lol at wheeling this bs out again. Foreman is a one weightclass top 20 guy. He never made a pitstop at whatever weightclass and cleaned up.

 

Does any other fighter have the defense squad of Foreman which defends every hiccup he had and considers him some sort of mythological juggernaut that could only be defeated by Ali using the incredible strategy of the rope a dope? And then it magically took his prime from him and he was never the same despite still being in his 20s............ Kinda funny. Maybe Duran or Liston. Duran I get kinda but I always wondered why Liston and Foreman get so many avid defenders and glazers over here.

 

Calling it masterful is a stretch. If you wanna see actual masterful ring cutting, watch someone like Napoles or Harada. Foreman was much better at forcing people back who din't want to move back, than he was at getting to guys who'd do it anyway. It's strategic as much as it is stylistic. He could obviously do it, but he it's been too romanticised by 70's era romance and flowery film study language. Louis and Frazier did it better at HW.

I think his main problem was his footwork. He often just pivoted along with guys instead of cutting them off with lateral movement or sneaky foot positioning. It's a bad habit that Canelo also fell victim to often, despite the fact that there was a time where he was seen as a major ring cutter when he was doing it to bigger slower guys who fell victim to his distance management. But just like Foreman, once the movers liked Bivol, Scull and Bud showed up, he started looking real foolish.

But Foreman's main advantages were that he was such a physical presence that it didn't matter 90% of the time, and that he used the right tools at the right time. Wide right hooks to the body near the ropes, pushing the other guy back, a long mummy guard to keep him busy, squaring up during the right instances, stuff like that. It was effective, most of the time, but clearly not polished enough to be call masterful.

 

He beat Moorer when Holyfield couldn’t, he beat Cooney too and some other decent names. He should get credit where it’s due for his comeback. No I wouldn’t put him top 5 just on his first career but with his second career i think it’s enough. Who would you put over him? I’d only have Ali, Louis and Holmes as definites

 

No.

The guys who do the weekly Benitez vs. Mayweather threads are in second place though.

 

Holyfield actually embarrassed Moorer when he was 100%.

 

He cleaned up everyone except the greatest and Jimmy Young, destroyed unbeaten Frazier, beat unbeaten Moorer at 45. Ran through Norton and Cooney like nothing.
Who are these other 20 heavyweights who would decapitate a prime Frazier and win the title back at 45?