What adavantages did Frazier have over Marciano that allowed him to thrive in the 60s and 70s?

You are premising this on a massive assumption.

I see no evidence that Marciano would not have been successful in teh 60s, or indeed that he woudl be less successful than Frazier.

 

I agree. Aside from an inferior right hand, Frazier was pretty much Marciano 2.0.

 

Because they’re listed as only 1 inch in height difference somehow many think their around the same size their not. Frazier for his most important fight was 205 for Ali 1. Marciano for Walcott 1 was 184 1/2. 20 lbs is huge when your 185 lbs. OK but what about reach boxing skill stamina speed coordination fighting heart resistance to cutting did Marciano dominate those categories? The answer is no if anyone did it’s Frazier.

 

I am not sure to what extent that perception does exist.

For example I would guess that most people would pick Marciano over all of Frazier's opponents, with the exception of the two men who beat him.

If I am right then that puts him on a comparable footing to Frazier.

 

Not necessarily.

Frazier was fighting alot better opposition than Marciano was early in their careers.

Frazier was fighting the likes of Oscar Bonavena, Eddie Machen, Doug Jones, in his 12th/13th/14th professional fights.

Marciano in his 21st professional fight got a gift decision against Ted Lowry who was considered a journeyman.

So if Marciano had to fight the same opposition that Frazier did early in his career Marciano could pick up a loss somewhere.

I also don't think Marciano even in his prime does as well against Ali as Frazier did.

 

If Marciano had to fight Chuvalo Bonavena Quarry Ellis Foster Machen Jones Buster Mathis he may win most but he’s definitely taking a couple of losses.

 

Yeah I hadn't thought about that, it would be very bad news for Marciano if Ali cut his nose like Charles did, Ali a lot meaner and harder hitting targeting the cut

 

You are half right and half wrong here.

Yes Frazier was matched harder early in his professional career, with a couple of notable exceptions.

However with that having been said, Marciano had twelve amateur fights before turning professional, while Frazier held an Olympic gold medal before his pro debut.

If we are swapping them round, then don't we have to give Marciano the smooth with teh rough?

So that brings us to the question of whether he does better or worse against Ali, given that he can't do much worse against Foreman.

You can argue it either ay, but even if Marciano never posted a win against Ali, that in itself woudl not put a massive difference between them, if Marciano made a clean sweep of the Ellis and Quarry class.

 

But that's flawed logic though and doesn't work.

Even with more amateur fights there's no certainty that Marciano would've been a stand out amateur that would've prepared him to take on tough opposition early in his professional career.

You can't just say "well let's conjure up a fantasy amateur career for Marciano assuming he becomes a stand out amateur fighter who wins a gold medal"

That logic doesn't work.

I would say there is a good chance Marciano could definitely pick up a loss if he fought the same opposition that Frazier fought in his first 20 professional fights.

I'm certain he wouldn't beat Ali.

Also another factor is Marciano didn't have an overly long professional career it was something like 7 or 8 years long right ?

So let's say Marciano gets KO'ed by Foreman which would be Marciano's 8th year as a professional if we're following the same timeline as Frazier.

Marciano in his actual career had already retired by that point.

So an aging Marciano who's suffered a brutal KO loss to Foreman. How would he fare against someone like Bugner for example ?

Bugner was 6'4, 220+ and he fought one of the best fights of his career vs Frazier and was really on it that night.

Marciano wasn't used to fighting good bigger skilled Heavyweights. And who's to say an aging Marciano coming off a brutal KO loss to Foreman couldn't lose to Bugner ?

That is a possibility.

 

Not fair to compare first 20 fights against Frazier who had a big amateur career winning Olympic gold. Those gold medal winners are not coming in as beginners their already middling pro level. Marciano on the other hand had a short amateur career so he was still developing as a pro.

 

I can't think of any. They were both about the same size even though Frazier started carrying extra weight, both were tough, and neither had any quit in them. However, Marciano was by far the more developed fighter, since Weill and Goldman were patient in his development. They made sure Marciano had a good amount of rounds under him, could punch effectively with both hands, and for the most part had experience with a bunch of different styles.

Frazier's development on the other hand was rushed, which is why even when he was champion he still had a few glaring holes in his game.
Futch himself admitted that Cloverlay was breathing down Durham's neck, so Futch wasn't able to dedicate the time he wanted to helping Frazier develop his right hand, which would've made Frazier a more versatile fighter. Years later during Frazier's post champ years Futch and Benton did start trying to help Frazier develop his right hand, which he showed in the Quarry rematch and even in the last Ali fight, but in my opinion he never really perfected his right hand.

 

Don't they? Can't be too many that thinks he wouldn't beat Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena etc (could be some great battles, though), so that leaves Ali. Maybe most don't think he could replicate what Frazier did in FOTC. Personally, I think prime Rocky is a tough match-up for any version of Ali and after the exile his legs weren't quite the same anymore.

Foreman is the one of the Frazier's opponents who looks all wrong for Marciano, but he definitely was for Frazier.

 

Aren’t too many? I would think again. Those contenders were all taller longer reaches heavier equal or better boxing skills. Where’s then overwhelming confidence that he can beat them come from? He may beat some but if he’s fighting all the top guys Frazier fought hes coming away with a few loses even before Foreman and Ali.

 

You'd make Quarry; Ellis or Bonavena a favourite against a Rocky around his prime? Can do a thread aboit that.