We have no evidence that Harry Greb was that good.

Well I think this is just the right thing to start a thread about!

 

Hi Greg.
There is a scene in my favourite film 12 Angry Men whereby a timid old man is trying to make a point, only to be shouted down by a loud mouthed arrogant fellow juror, the old man says to Fonda " he is not listening " Fonda " he can't hear you, he never will " timeless.
stay safe buddy.
Mike.

 

They'll learn.. too late..

 

oh i get it. So even though we have lots of footage of the men Greb beat to earn his claim to fame we can disregard that since it wasnt taken at the exact moment Greb beat them.

 

Greb has the best resume of all time, therefore Greb=GOAT.

 

Without realising it, you are giving the perfect example of the key point Sal made, by placing an extraordinary significance on your opinion of how a fighter looks on film.

As per IK's post on page 1, rankings were first published 2-years before Greb retired, yet he got the better of top 10 ranked opponents in 39 fights. Had rankings existed his entire career, he'd have gotten the better of 10 top ranked opponents in well over 100 bouts.

Greb got the better of his HoF opponent in 32 x contests.

Greb got the better of his world champion opponent in 34 x fights.

There are 1000's of documented primary sources describing Greb's performances.

We have film of multiple ATGs that Greb got the better of.

Your claim that none of the above is sufficient to assess his greatness, because you've not seen him on film, is as laughable as it is staggering in its self importance - again, the cornerstone point in Sal's original post.

 

Again, you're conflating ATG lists, which are based on fighters records and achievements (e.g. did the 1920's boxer prove his greatness in his era to a lesser or greater degree than the fighter from the 1990's did in his), with P4P H2H (e.g. your predicted outcomes on cross era fantasy fights, a ridiculous notion when considering fighters from vastly far apart eras, for a multitude of reasons).

Film is required for the latter, not for the former.

 

While it is true that we cannot imagine a Greb fight in detail (ie we can't wonder about how Robinson does against his hook, or how Hagler reacts to his faints , etc.), what we do have are the endless praise and testimonies of his skill level and abilities from both Pro and pundit alike which we can consider against guys from different eras.

We do know that he had insanely high levels of things like speed of hand and foot, defensive cleverness, unorthodox Style, unpredictable punch selection, stamina, heart, toughness, willingness to fight the very best (a lot!) regardless of physical advantages the opponent May have, and more.

Not being able to see Greb in action is probably my greatest disappointment as a boxing fan. When we see something like a picture of him in front of an opponent, bent over at an extreme angle at the waist with his elbows way up over his shoulder blades as if he were about to do a somersault, it makes one wonder 'what on Earth is this guy doing'? LOL

 

A great many pre 1950s fighters, writers & trainers proclaimed Greb to be the greatest... but unlike many other greats he died relatively young & there is strangely no footage of his bouts therefore prior to the renewed modern day resurgence of interest in Harry his presence faded from the sport as television came to prominence, new stars emerged & his contemporaries gradually passed away... here are a collection of quotes & opinions of many of them that i found on previous threads .. hope the writers down mind me reposting them here:

ATG Mickey Walker in 1949 rated Greb as the greatest fighter who ever lived.

Billy Prince, writing for the Bridgeport Herald in 1950 rated Greb the greatest MW of alll time.

In his March 29, 1929 syndicated column Grantland Rice called Greb the best "little good man" I ever saw.

In the February 20, 1926 issue of Colliers Rice wrote an article about Greb titled "The King of all the Marvels" in which Rice
literally gushes about Greb's faculties as a fighter.

In his March 5, 1936 article Rice called Greb the fastest fighter he had ever seen and said that Joe Louis would have as
difficult a time with him as anyone. Teddy Hayes, Dempsey's old trainer is quoted as agreeing with this assessment.

In 1944 Grantland Rice called Greb the greatest fighter pound for pound he had ever seen.

ATG Gene Tunney often called him one of the greatest if not the greatest fighters to ever live.

In the Pittsburgh Press of January 24, 1924 Cuddy DeMarco rated Greb the greatest fighter he ever saw.

In the February 7, 1958 edition of the Binghamton Press John Fox called Greb the greatest fighter ever.

In the November 17, 1948 issue of the Winnipeg Free Press Gene Tunney is quoted as saying that greb is possibly the greatest fighter pound for pound he has ever seen.

In the December 30, 1937 issue of the Lethbridge Heral Soldier Jones rated Greb the greatest fighter of all.

In the March 17, 1941 issue of the New York post Jack Kearns stated that Greb was a sure shot to beat Dempsey if he had been "Sucker enough" to accept the match.

In the August 1929 issue of the Geneva Times ATG Maxie Rosenbloom says Greb gave him the toughest fight he ever had and admits that Greb could have knocked him out if he wanted.

In the July 12, 1951 issue of the Cumberland Evening Times Charles Einstein picked Greb to beat Rocky Marciano and Rex Layne
in a mythical matchup.

In the May 24, 1955 issue of the same paper Tunney picked Greb to beat Marciano saying Marciano wouldnt lay a glove on him.

In the september 9, 1929 issue of the Montana Standard ATG Tommy Loughran rated Greb the greatest fighter he ever fought.

In the November 14, 1951 issue of the Troy Times Record veteran fight manager Tom Walsh ranked Greb as the greatest fighter pound for pound that he had ever seen.

In the November 4, 1947 issue of the Tucson Daily Citizen Jimmy Slattery credits Greb with giving him his toughest fight.

In the February 13 1951 issue of the Cumberland News C.V. Burns calls Greb the greatest middleweight ever.

In the May 13, 1951 issue of the Salt Lake Tribune veteran fight handler Babe Culnan rated Greb the greatest fighter ever
pound for pound.

In Chuck Wiggins obituary in May 1942 he is quoted as always saying Greb was "the greatest I ever met"

In the November 8, 1953 issue of Knockout ATG Jimmy McLarnin calls Harry Greb the greatest fighter he ever saw.

On May 29, 1941 (the newspaper this is from is cut off) Bill Corum called Greb one of the greatest fist fighting men of them
all
On September 4, 1932 writing for the Universal News Service Ed W. Smith, legendary referee and newspaper reporter, wrote how Dempsey could not beat Greb.

In the 1951/52 Weekly Sporting Review Xmas and New Year Annual E. G. Hammon lauds Greb as one of the greatest middleweights of
all time.

Red Mason, Greb's former manager called Greb the greatest fighter of his weight that ever lived. Maybe a biased opinion but
Mason was as expert on boxing as it got.

John McGarvey, matchmaker for Motor Square Garden ranked Greb with greatest middleweights of all time

Patsy Scanlon, lightweight boxer, ranked Greb as greater than Dempsey at his best.
James J. Long of the Pittsburgh Sun ranked him as one of the most outsanding boxers of all time.

E. W. Dickerson, longtime boxing expert for the Grand Rapids Herald called Greb "The greatest boxer of his weight and inches the ring has ever known."

George Barton, one of the most respected boxing experts in the country for decades, called Greb "one of the best fighters of
his weight that the game ever produced" and stated it would be "a long time before we will see his equal, all around ability
considered."

George Engel, another of Greb's managers who ended on bad terms with Greb called him one of the greatest fighters the world
has ever known

Jack Farrell, writing on October 31, 1926 (the newspaper is "the News" but I dont have where its from) called Greb "one of the greatest in the game" and said his record was probably one of the greatest ever compiled.

“Greb doesn’t box. That’s why he can beat the boxers. They know what a boxer ought to do, and that’s just what Greb never does.”—Robert Edgren

“Boxers are lost before Greb because he doesn’t respond to the usual boxing movements.”—Arkansas Democrat

“There’s no use trying to be scientific with Greb. He pays no attention to it. He hit me so often I didn’t see anything but stars, and there wasn’t a punch that came over the way it ought to.”—Gene Tunney, 7/2/1922

“I saw him have even that super-boxer, Mike Gibbons, tied into a half dozen knots one night in Pittsburgh and you know that anybody who can treat Mike in that scandalous manner must be pretty much of a fighting article.” –Ed W. Smith

“Greb is fast and bounds like a kangaroo all over the ring, hitting from awkward positions. One can never tell when he is going to let fly a solid punch or a light tap….No matter how good a boxer may be he will have a hard time figuring out Greb.”—Mike Gibbons

“How can you make a good showing against a fellow who does everything backwards?”—Jeff Smith

“He is the hardest man in the world to fight, because he does everything wrong and shows a fellow up.” –Tommy Gibbons

He was the windmill, shooting punches from every angle, catapulting himself at the other fellows with a ferocity and suddenness that could not be handled by pure boxing skill.”—Ed Hughes, Brooklyn Daily Eagle

“He always kept his adversary guessing on what he would do and usually did opposite to what the other bucko expected.”—George Barton

"The man I believe to be the greatest fighter who ever lived is Harry Greb"
-Hank Kaplan

"Some of the world's greatest ringmen have fought in the division, among them such stars as Kid McCoy, Harry Greb.."
-Nat Fleischer

"Greb is the fastest fighter i ever saw"
- Jack Dempsey

"The fastest fighter I ever saw in my life was that white boy from Pittsburgh, Harry Greb. And they called him windmill for a reason, the faster he went, the more he punched, and from all over!"
-Sam Langford

Ray Arcel once said he'd only seen 3 fighters who he thought were naturals in the ring.. pure fighters.. Sugar Ray Robinson, Roberto Duran, and Harry Greb..

ATG Billy Conn often mentioned to others including renowned boxing historian Bert Sugar that Greb was the best to ever lace up a pair of gloves.

My thoughts are thus.. It's clear he had a huge impact on those who both fought & saw him. So to suggest there is no evidence is absolute nonsense. Resume is king. It's the meat & bones of a fighter.. how do we measure greatness? Resume. Achievement. Overcoming challenges.. & Grebs are incomparable. He's the GOAT.

 

Hi Buddy.
What a labour of love, to find the time and inclination for the above is impressive, many thanks.
Mike.

 

Cheers Mike, admittedly I'm a bit of a sad Greb nerd.. but hey.. there's worse things to be.

 

So am I.

 

You're still missing the point. I never said records aren't enough to assess Greb's greatness in his own era. What I'm saying is that records and newspaper reports alone aren't enough to accurately rank him against fighters from later eras whose careers we can actually watch on film. All-time P4P/GOAT lists require cross-era comparisons, and that's exactly where the near-total lack of usable footage for Greb becomes a real issue. No one is denying his dominance or his insane resume. But there's a huge reason why most historians still place Robinson and Armstrong above him despite Greb having the better resume on paper.

 

No, again, you're conflating what a fighter achieved (the basis for placement on ATG lists) with how good you think they look on film (irrelevant to placement on ATG lists).


ATG lists = who achieved more greatness in the era in which they competed.

The last time I called you out on inconsistent posting, you inferred we may be at cross purposes because English isn't your first language. So, to help you understand my point Let's play devils advocate and discuss a hypothetical scenario. Footage of all Greb's fights emerge and you watch every second. You agree with all results and all newspaper assessments as to who had the better of the fight, but you think he looked terrible. Slow, sloppy technique, easy to hit and no power. Yet he still has the best and deepest win resume in history. On what basis do you rate him all time? The objective basis of actual outcomes? Or the subjective basis of your opinion of how he looks? When you answer, bear in mind the following two factors:

1. You're on record on this thread as conceding that predicted outcomes in cross era fantasy fights aren't irrelevant to ATG rankings.

2. Boxers fight to get the better of their opponents, not so they look good to someone who is used to watching boxing under vastly different conditions several decades, or in this case over a century, later.

 

To answer your hypothetical:

If film of all Greb's fights suddenly appeared and showed him looking slow, sloppy, and easy to hit, yet the newspapers still called him a genius, we'd immediately realize the old reports were exaggerated or incomplete. That's why the lack of film matters. How he looks on film isn't just a subjective opinion but its evidence of speed, technique, dominance, and adaptability. We have that evidence for Robinson and Armstrong and the ATGs they beat. We don't have it for Greb. No one's denying his insane resume or his greatness in the 1920s. But all-time P4P lists require cross-era comparison of how impressive that greatness actually was compared to the greatness of others, and resume alone isn't enough to decide that. That's where records and newspaper praise alone fall short.

So here’s a question to you. If I concede for the sake of argument that Greb has the best resume of any boxer ever, why do so many historians still rank Robinson, Armstrong, and even some Charles above him? They know his record as well as we do. Doesn’t that imply that resume and intra-era greatness aren’t the only criteria that matter?