What adavantages did Frazier have over Marciano that allowed him to thrive in the 60s and 70s?

He was more active with his rhythm, constantly moving something to keep his opponent guessing, which tired guys out quicker, because they also had to worry about the threat of his power.

 

The problem with your logic is that you are matching Marciano against the worst aspects of Frazier's career, which is fair enough, but you are also combining them with the worst aspects of his own career.

This results in a chimera career, where the professional career is not a very plausible match for the amateur career.

As for who Marciano would our wouldn't beat it is pure supposition, but if you take away Ali and Foreman, then I don't think that Frazier's opposition is necessarily better than Marciano's

 

The issue with threads like this is no one ever takes into account that the fighter wouldn't be 100 percent prime for all these fights.

If you're creating a scenario where you want 1 fighter to follow the same career path of another fighter.

Then you have to have a realistic scenario like the fact Marciano would be pre prime in some fights. And he would be out of his prime m in some fights aswell.

Not to mention all the wear and tear from the tough fights and Marciano cut easier than Frazier did aswell.

So some of the tough early opposition that Frazier fought before he become champion could very well beat Marciano. Because it took Marciano a bit longer to fully develop as a professional.

We also don't know how Marciano would react to a loss especially a brutal KO loss to Foreman. In which i think many would predict that Marciano wouldn't stand a chance vs Foreman.

So then as i said you would have a Marciano past his prime suffering a more than likely KO loss to Foreman. And then he has to fight Bugner who's considerably bigger than him who fought one of the best fights of his career the night he fought Frazier.

So again as i said there's a possibility Marciano could lose that fight. Given thay he would be out of his prime and would be coming off a brutal KO loss to Foreman.

Would Marciano at his absolute best be favoured over most of Frazier's opponents outside of Ali and Foreman ? more than likely yes.

But again as i keep saying if you're following a realistic timeline of Frazier's career path. Then Marciano wouldn't be at his absolute best against all these notable fighters.

 

Very valid points!

 

How many more amateur fights did Frazier have?

 

Obviously, given his record, Rock was able to impose his will on all of his opponents inevitably. But despite Marciano's undeniable career success, I view Frazier as the one more insistent on fighting on his terms.

Comparatively speaking, Rocky was content to let the rounds unfold wherever and however they may, having the natural instincts of an ambush predator, as opposed to a chase-down pressure fighter. In most cases, this, in my opinion, should be seen as an advantage for Joe because he presents a more focused plan of attack, not letting the opponent breathe with his faster, more relentless pressure.

Marciano's style favors a slower pace where his powerful counterpunching eventually engulfs opposing forces against it.

 

I believe his amateur record was 38-2, so more than three times as many.

 

He also said Norton was better than Foreman.

 

Even money I’d say for all 3. They’re all coming in with height reach and weight advantages. Bonavena sometimes listed as low as 5 10 would have the largest weight advantage with about 20 lbs for the Argentine strongman. Ellis might have the least power but the most skill. He b be like a bigger Ezzard Charles. I have studied Rex Layne vs Quarry and I see Jerry as the same as Rex but with better boxing skills. Whatever trouble Rex gave Rocky Quarry’s going to give him significantly more.

 

This isn’t completely true, They both threw the same amount of punches per round. Per Compubox. The difference is Frazier’s style made him easier to hit and he had to burn more energy with all his head movement. Marciano never let anyone dictate the pace. He was always working even when not punching he was pushing, leaning, controlling the inside space moving them off balance so they couldn’t throw proper punches. You did make a great point that Marciano did like to counter punch more than given credit for mainly the jab as he let it go over his back in his lean.

 

Goldman would be rolling in his grave if you thought Bonavena could beat Rocky. Did you really compare Ellis to Charles? Really? Charles would have flattened him. I give the edge to Quarry over Layne. They were the same height and weight but neither man handled smaller pressure power punchers well.

 

Your clinging to your hero’s I understand it’s hard to realize time marches on and athletes got better. So you believe these guys somehow belie normal rules of other humans. If your happier that way go ahead ignorance is bliss. If you’re interested however in getting the closest view of reality you have to be willing to possibly be disappointed with your childhood heros. I did it I was disappointed after studying film and reading everything available I couldn’t deny what was apparent the new guys overall are better. If you’re willing to see the truth I would advise watching the fighters of each era side by side. It’s apparent who’s faster and has better technique. And you have to understand relativity so you need to know the tail of the tape. If your as skilled brave determined and have as good stamina as me but your faster and 20 lbs heavier as well going to be pretty hard for me to beat you.

 

Yeah the 90s were so much better than the 70s two 45 year old men were winning titles and beating ranked men. You confuse steroids with skill. You confuse the fact that men only train for 12 not 15. There’s a reason people are heavier it’s because they can be. But weight is not a skill otherwise Fury would be champ and conventional sized Usyk wouldn’t be. Judge people on their styles, accomplishments, failures, power, stamina, chin, speed, intelligence, corner. Everything else is noise and your emotions.
And if you actually studied film on Marciano or Moore or Charles you wouldn’t say many of the things you do.

 

There is no doubt Frazier was fighting a higher class of fighter earlier in his career,how much the extra amateur bouts aided his development is open to conjecture.
In his 11th pro fight Frazier was facing Bonavena,his 12th Machen,his13th Jones no8,16th Chuvalo no8.
Marciano didn't fight anyone ranked until his 25th fight when he faced another prospect Lastarza ,ranked no 10 and he would have another 10 fights before he faced another ranked man, Layne no6.

 

Rocky's slower pace in fighting ranked fighters seems natural for one without top amateur pedigree. Doubtful if he would have fared well against Bonavena in his 12th pro fight. In his prime, that's another matter completely.