Ali was not the best ever. Nor was he the greatest heavyweight

Ali's close decisions came when he was past his best though. Lewis in or near his prime arguably should have lost to Ray Mercer, and the rematch against an old Holyfield was close aswell. Ali may or may not be the H2H best ever at heavy but he's certainly got the best resume by a longshot, which helps his case.

 

Ali had the most wins over recognized great opponents. It's him or Joe Louis. I have Lennox at 3.

 

Ali's career was outstanding. No way to avoid close decisions or losses when fighting the opposition he fought. Stellar resume.

H2H is one thing. Ali is definitely getting underrated at times. He was extremely sharp, explosive, and creative to the point of genius when it comes to timing and traps. Not fully complete, but extremely capable.

 

Stop

 

He's nowhere near "the best ever" in boxing terms in a P4P sense.

Most people recognise that he's probably the greatest HW in terms of resume - but even that can be disputed. Certainly there are guys that I think would beat him H2H.

 

Do you think Vitali is a greater heavyweight than Ali? I remember you said H2H Vitali would beat him. But do you think he is greater?

 

It is not Vitali's fault that his era was weak but the fact is that he only fought one great fighter and he didn't win that fight. What has he done that would make you think he would beat Ali.

 

Yes only if he had wins over geniuses like Dubois instead of a guy who was competitive into his 40s who was also the most awesome offensive force in heavyweight history

 

I would love to see an alternative timeline where Vitali turns pro at 18 in 1989.

 

I consider him both the best and the greatest. I prefer watching Joe Louis and consider Louis a close second. I prefer Larry Holmes, as a fan, and I consider him a more distant third. Lennox is the best combo of size and skill. You can find some guys who are incredibly fast, and maybe Patterson and Tyson are as fast when you're accounting for how much power is getting emptied out per shot, per second. There are better pure boxers, more analytical and adjustable. But Ali is still the greatest self-fulfilling prophetic nickname ever. When you strip Ali of his persona, you still have an inhumanly resilient, unbelievably fast, poised, dynamic fighter who's somehow never been taken out the way Lennox was in his losses, been able to claw his way up and to victory when it starts to look like he might have been, never had his face torn up the way Vitali did, never had an injury that ended a fight like Vitali did, never got Schmelinged like my number two in Louis did. Not when he was green and not when he was practically a ghost.

This is coming from someone who never bought that he decisively bested Norton and never rated him with sentimentality for his charisma. His record is just too damned deep. Beating tanks, speedy darting fighters, slick defensive fighters, awkward unique stylists, bulldozers, brawlers, muggers, clubbers and smotherers. Sometimes it wasn't decisive, sometimes it was butt-ugly, sometimes he took way more punishment than you'd think he should've, didn't adjust as you'd think TBE would've or got away with something he shouldn't have, like pretty much every other champion. But he did it all with the deepest record of quality fighters altogether. Ali is still the gold standard for me. His ostensible weaknesses just weren't that weak and his supposed best strengths are sometimes dwarfed by other strengths. As in, his defensive ability that relied on reflexes and speed was sometimes taking a back seat to his incredible durability when the reflexes weren't getting it done and a hole in his game was exposed. He could ship that punishment when he wasn't highlight-reeling his head and feet around it. Overall best and greatest. Speaking of the rope-a-dope not working against Vitali, I can't help but think of Vitali's aggravation at Kevin Johnson doing it when Kevin was barely throwing anything at him and his inability to do much damage to the timid non-challenger. He may've had a stroke with Ali doing it.

 

Greater, no. H2H, I would take Vitali.