Dubois is not a champion he's still a contender

It's really this simple.

Usyk is the champion, Dubois is a titlest.

 

I think with four world titles we could use the word champion for many boxers. My definition of champion isn't limited to whoever wins a world title, but rather something more, which defines a boxer's greatness based on what he demonstrates throughout his career. So, for me, Dubois isn't a champion so far, but a very good or great fighter. I also give him credit for having managed to get back up several times and also for having put on spectacular fights, it's always a positive thing to have boxers like him around.

 

Of course you don’t lol

 

I know what you mean mate, I just pay little to no attention to ABC titles in general.

I don't really consider how "legitimate" ABC titlests are, they're either the champion or not. Dubois is a titlest, he isn't the champion, Usyk is, and that's all that matters to me.

 

Usyk devalues the belts by fighting a kickboxer after a long time off. It would be less bad if he fought at least twice a year and did a mandatory defense AND the kickboxer in one year...

This way whe have the greatest heavyweight and cruiserweight of this generation where we don't know how much time is biting off his strength already, thus losing a bit of his legitimacy.

And the (corrictly) stripped belt has less legitimacy since it wasn't won against the actual champion.

So boxing loses.
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Apart from that dubois has the second best current resumé only to usyk. And noone could criticize dubois being champion if usyk retired today.

Kabayel has the advantage of zero losses, though that doesn't matter to me as much. Kabayel is number 3 for me, now.
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I now hope for two matchups among kabayel, usyk, dubois and hrgovic. Just not dubois vs usyk obviously



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And a little Sidenote: people often criticize dubois for getting many good opportunities, but often fail to mention, that he actually takes all of them. He is a modern chisora that way. When all is said and done he will have faced the best roster of opponents and given us the biggest number of interesting fights among all heavyweights. So we should be thankful for that.

 

Your posts read like a contender who lost to the lineal champ will never be worthy of the label titlist no matter how many top contenders they beat for whichever belt as long as the champ who beat them is active, which makes no sense.

WBO hadn't had a mandatory defence in years, since Usyk/Joshua I to be exact. They did what sanctioning organizations always do in situations like these, staged an interim title bout, which is what they did with Parker/Wardley. The whole point of an interim title contest is to crown a champ within the organization in case the champ shows reluctance to defend against their mandatory challenger. Usyk vacating the belt isn't Wardley's fault, he earnt the label titlist by beating Parker. That's who Dubois beat to win the title.

The same thing with IBF. They hadn't had a mandatory defence since Joshua/Pulev I think. Hrgovic had been in line for a crack for years, so when he couldn't get it (which was Fury's fault for dragging out the Usyk fight for as long as he could), they staged an interim bout between him and Hrgovic, so Dubouis became their interim champ by beating him and then solidified his claim by beating the former unified champion Joshua.

Stiverne, Martin, Haye, Valuev, Maskaev, Wilder (at least for the first 3 years of his reign), Parker (during his brief WBO reign) all arguably had weaker body of work and all held a title. Dubois losing to the best fighter of the decade doesn't automatically forfeit his claim, he beat legit top5 HWs to get there.

What if Usyk decided to pull an old Foreman, vacated the belts and milked the lineal championship until his mid 40s? Does that mean Dubois by default is eliminated from being a legitimate titlist for the better part of the next decade regardless of how many top contenders he beat?

 

Kind of but not really imo. When he first won a belt I firmly didn't consider him a proper champ of any kind. A guy Usyk beat winning a belt Usyk dropped.

This case is a bit different though. For me Wardley was a more legitimate champ even if he wasn't THE champ, just because Usyk failed to fight Parker and then Wardley. It was one thing when he dropped the belt to rematch Fury as iirc they had a two fight deal. But after beating Dubois last year Usyk showed little eagerness to fight Parker then took the rest of the year off, only to announce that he'd be fighting Verhoven this year rather than any actual contender. At that point him losing that belt was fully justified. In this era mandatories, atleast in theory, are necessary because otherwise a lot of guys will simply never give deserving contenders a chance.

Joyce never got a title shot, Zhang never got one, Hrgovic hasn't got one, Hunter never got one, Kabayel hasn't gotten one yet, Parker hasn't got one since losing his belt like 8 years ago, Dilliain Whyte arguably aged out of his prime before ever getting his WBC title shot etc. You could argue that them taking the losses they took is why they either never got a shot or took so long to get shots, but in the past taking a loss or two simply meant being moved down the pecking order, not being removed from it completely. It's why I understand Kabayel's current tactic of taking light touches until he gets a shot. Why take the risk and potentially end up at square 0 like Parker or Joyce?

In the past being a champion meant defending against hungry contenders. Now because of all the belts and people wanting to see unifications mainly, champs are given passes for not fighting deserving contenders.

It's because of this that I tend to lend more legitimacy to guys who get vacant belts because the champions don't fight them for whatever reason. It's not their fault at the end of the day, it's the champions job to defend and if they don't want to then the only thing a contender can do is try to get them stripped so they can be elevated to champion. So with Wardley I considered him a legit champion. Dubois beat him so I guess that now I have to consider Dubois a legit champion. Though I'm not as sure about this case with Dubois, as this was an underserved title shot. The guy has had 3 shots at winning belts in the last 3 years which is emblematic of a problem in the sport because the first and last shots were totally undeserved, and even the shot at unification with Usyk last year I maintain should have been Parker against Usyk with Usyk taking Dubois on later in the year. He offers the most money and is Frank Warrens pet so he can get as many opportunities to come back as needed.

 

Daniel got his belt out of the trash where Usyk discarded it. That's why he's known as "Bin Man".

 

Daniel Dubois has unfortunately fallen into the same situation that Mike Weaver fell into when he won the WBA title after he'd already lost to WBC Heavyweight Champion Larry Holmes. Weaver beat some names, but the loss to Holmes still hung over his title run.

Of course, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Nothing ever is.

Unlike the current situation, Holmes and Weaver were both relatively young at the time or in their primes, whereas Dubois is a dozen years younger than Usyk.

Also, Holmes wasn't fighting kickboxers with no wins, like Usyk is, while Dubois is beating Usyk's mandatories.

Dubois is an exciting and dangerous heavyweight. Who knows, he may be able to beat everyone right now except Usyk, who clearly has has number. (Some fighters just do.) Dubois may even be able to beat some fighters who Usyk can't beat. But Dubois just seemed lost both times he's faced Usyk.

That said, Dubois is the WBO champion. Not an "interim" champ or a "regular" champ. Usyk isn't the WBO champ. Usyk has no claim to that belt. Oleksandr gave it up voluntarily because he didn't want to fight his mandatory.

So Dubois is a legit titleholder. He may not be the best of all the titleholders, but he's a legit WBO champ. And he's certainly someone to be reckoned with.

 

Usyk gave up the WBO belt, so the present holder is the world champion of that sanctioning body.

Dubois beat the fighter Usyk 'ducked', well that term is bandied around if other fighters do not face their mandatory contender.

 

Daniel Dubois is recognised as a world champion by the boxing industry so I'm sure he is OK with that