36yr old Ali lost to a 7 fight novice (Spinks), 39yr old Usyk beat kickboxing legend with 77 fights

He dedicates about 50% of his training to boxing, but nothing besides the basics based on his style and Dave Allens assessment of the sparring session and plus you aren't considering kick boxers adapt their boxing for not leaving themselves vulnerable to kicks and knees, and their stance is typically more square in comparison, a few standard boxing techniques would become near useless when we add kicks to the equation. The head movement and angles of most elite boxers is in a different league to the head movement and agility of kickboxers. Unleashing a combination to raise the guard and create an opening for the leg kicks is not the same as setting up boxing similar traps for 20 years. And it was quite bizarre that Usyks defensive economy alone didn't make Verhoeven look out of depth, he followed him around with a tight guard and threw sloppy punches, this should've been gassiev 2.

As I've already mentioned hyperspecalization makes most of Verhoevens boxing training largely irrelevant if we are talking about the highest level of boxing (Usyk) and you will see this unfold once Verhoeven fights another top contender and gets butchered. You know it, thats why you've been saying Verhoeven isn't going to be the same after Usyk despite his noteworthy durability and recovery, you dont expect him to fare well against the landscape other top heavyweights if he attempts to fight them.

Verhoeven has taken a bunch of head kicks, has been generally training in sports for much longer and is also around the same age as Usyk so in all honesty the age excuse is a bit iffy.

 

I agree with most of this. The footwork is just vastly different in kickboxing due to the squared stance. You sacrifice some lateral movement to protect your lead leg from leg kicks and to be able to kick yourself. The only kick you can throw from a bladed stance in kickboxing is a side kick. And much of kickboxing is fought from a super long kicking range so the distance is entirely different between the two sports. Some fighters still have excellent lateral movement, but it's just typically used in shorter bursts. Elite kickboxers can create good angles, too, but these skillsets aren't as big of a priority in kickboxing as they are in boxing.

As far as head movement, a lot of elite kickboxers have excellent pull counters. And they can get their head off center line while throwing strikes. And there are some defensive wizards who would probably surprise you with their head movement. Guys like Lerdsila, Petrosyan, Artem Levin, etc. But, yes, kickboxing head movement is obviously not on the level of defensive geniuses in boxing. But like you said, there's a risk of your opponent using punches to get your head offline so you move right into a head kick which would be disastrous.

You don't even have to have great boxing centric kickboxing skills to be an all-time great kickboxer if you are an elite kicker. Buakaw and Superbon are good examples of that. They use teeps, front kicks, jabs, and the dracula guard as their main lines of defense, and it's worked excellent for both of them. In boxing you have footwork, jabs, feints, guarding, and head movement as your five main lines of defense. But in kickboxing, there's the added dimension of keeping them at range with kicks. In kickboxing, there's just more ways to skin a cat.

But, of course, that versatility comes at the cost of specialization which I think is the main point we're getting at here. Yes, elite boxing-centric kickboxers have good "boxing skills". But they are boxing skills specific designed for a kickboxing context, not a pure boxing one. Some of them can transition over to boxing and have success and even become champions after years of specialized training. There have been quite a few muay thai champions who later became boxing champions. And Tenshin Nasukawa has a good chance to become a champion, too.

In Rico's case, he was never some defensive genius in kickboxing. He was just pretty solid everywhere and very tough. He would get hit a lot. He got dragged into life and death wars multiple times. He would get brutally dropped and nearly finished, and then miraculously pull off a victory somehow. Maybe if Rico had started as a boxer, he could have been a solid heavyweight. And that's a big maybe. But there's no way that he's going to close that gap in the few short years of athletic competition he has left.

 

This was a very informative post for a noob like me who doesn't really know anything about kickboxing.

Outstanding post kudos to you.

 

How old are you? It is difficult to comprehend the phenomenon Ali was unless you lived somewhere on the planet at the time. There weren't many anywhere who weren't well aware of him, and communications were vastly more primitive then. Today if you asked non boxing fans to name a boxer, most would say Mike Tyson

Sports science has evolved considerably since Ali's day and has allowed many athletes five years or more longer prior to retirement. Back then most retired in early 30s, and 36 was about today's 41. Ali would have stitched up Usyk most days of the week just quietly.

His catch phrase: "I am the greatest!" Wasn't pure boasting.

 

Ali had early signs of Parkinson's by then which only got progressively worse as he got older Plus he had fought over twice as many prize fights as Usyk has at the same point. Usyk looked bad against a non-contender because he's either washed, took the fight unseriously or just wasn't that good to begin with. None of those options look good.

 

That video comes from someone from outside the boxing media ecosystem naturally, as the official word among Boxing "purists" was that Rico would have no shot at all to do anything, and even suggesting he would, means YDKSAB.

 

No, Ali was age 36 and did NOT have Parkinson's at that time.

He gradually developed Parkinson's years later in his 40s and 50s.

 

Ali was diagnosed with Parkinson's in 1984.

But there was signs of Ali deteriorating in the late 1970s with his slurred speech.

One report noted Ali's speaking rate had slowed 16 percent after his brutal fight with Shavers.

Ali should've retired after " The Thriller In Manilla"

And likewise I think Usyk should've retired after Dubois 2.

But maybe this was just an off night for Usyk and maybe he has one last great performance left in him to defeat Kabayel we will see.

 

Ali is one of the most overrated athletes ever.

 

yeah, it’s embarrassing and I like Usyk a lot

 

This is what happens when the mother smokes and does drugs during the pregnancy

 

Holyfield-Cooper
Johnson-Ketchell
Louis-Buddy Baer
Demspey-Meehan
Fury-Ngannou
Bowe-Tubbs (ancient version)
Lewis-McCall
Baer-Braddock
Ali-Cooper
Holmes-Spinks (who jumped two classes to come up from LHW)
Frazier-Bonevena
Patterson-Rademacher
Liston-Marshal

 

Usyk is the oldest Ring HW champ to ever record a win, with a style based on speed and stamina rather than size and power, so I don't see how his 2+ year age disadvantage isn't a factor worth taking seriously.

In any event, I know KB and boxing are not exactly the same, they are ofc not 100% transferable skillsets. Yet there have been at least two fighters in lower weights who were simultaniously KB and boxing world champs. And if we look at CW/HW, some late to transition kickboxers include Ring champions and contenders in Vitali, Briedis, Povetkin, Miller and Whyte. Based on this, KB striking and boxing are closer to "completely transferable" than to "not transferable at all".

If we take a hypothetical 37 year old 1-0 Vitali, Briedis or Povetkin who stayed in KB and became dominant long reigning champions, transitioning to fight Usyk in a boxing match coming off an 11 year winning streak, I think they could have success. Let's give them 15+ years training boxing with the Fury's, sparring top HW's, no boxing footage to study and Usyk seriously underestimating them, with them having several months to study Usyk, and training for the fight of their life. In this perfect storm scenario they could turn any number of champs over.