Usyk has lost 32 of his last 85 rounds.

Well that last part isn't accurate:

• Chisora (seen as a perennial gate keeper to the top 10 after being stopped by Whyte BUT he was doing very well against low ranked opponents)
• Joshua I (seen as still trying to get his confidence back after Ruiz 1, many questioned the difficulties he had with Pulev)
• Joshua II (well he was coming off a loss obviously)
• Dubois I (coming off injury and a terrible performance against Lerena)
• Fury I (coming off a terrible performance against Ngannou)
• Fury II (coming off a loss, which he was struggling to accept)
• Dubois II (he was arguably the most in form [second to Parker], but was coming off a cancelled fight through injury)

Witherspoon (doesn't really count, but he was third choice) and Rico (well you excluded him, so fair enough)

He fought the belt holders, and achieved undisputed - first of the four belt era! - but I don't think we should over egg the pudding. Most of these guys were not in top form heading into the fights.

 

I cant believe the fluffing of Mormeck, Pianeta and Leapai. These were atrocious fights, on par or worse than Wilder's worst defences. Malik Scott shut out Leapai and outboxed an old Thompson, so even he is probably above those cans.

The majority of Wlad's defences were weak and this was less an era problem than a risk aversion problem. Povetkin and Haye for instance could have been rematched in vastly more significant fights than Pieneta and Leapai were. Valuev was around, had a belt, and would have been a big money fight in Germany, which Bonte illogically claimed to have no interest in.

Fury losing to Usyk twice hurt his reputation far more than retiring after beating Whyte would have done. I saw people arguing that Usyk was exposed by scraping a 1 point win over Fury as Fury had already "lost" to Ngannou. And if Fury doesnt fight Ngannou in a crossover, maybe Usyk doesnt fight and "rob" Rico. In any case, the idea that being beaten twice elevates the lineal champ of 8.5 years is ludicrous. Marciano is frequently mentioned in ATG discussions, which would be far less the case if he were 49-1 with a loss to the next lineal champ. Fury did not fight the same Wilder as Parker did, 2 years removed from his 2nd brutal KO loss to Fury, then 38, and having had 1 round in 26 months previously, and Wilder will be in the HoF regardless of his late career decline.

 

This is the first time ever that the likes of Coopman and Dunn have been described as "elite heavyweights" lol.

Most of those guys would get crushed by Chisora; a teak-tough, heavily roided 255 lbs 2x challenger from 50 years in future, in a small British ring, with the judges on his side. Only the elites of that time would have a realistic chance, and some of them likely lose too.

 

@Devon Just to add to the above, the most in form fighter (besides Usyk) from 2021 to present were most likely seen as:

Fury (2021/2022) > Joyce (2022) > Zhang (2023) > Parker (2024/2025) > Kabayel (2025/present)

I think that is a fairly accurate assessment of the past 5 years, but maybe it is very much my opinion.

 

I assume the * after Ruiz is because when he stepped on the scales for the second fight he was morbidly obese (BMI)

This is going to go down like a lead balloon
(Floated this idea before Usyk v Fury I - it was not popular - and in fairness I think Usyk has shown himself to be the top fighter of this generation, though I would have loved to have seen him fight Joyce in 2022/2023 or Parker in 2024/2025)

 

I don't know if it was that genius. He went from an instant fan favourite to a guy struggling to get big fights.

 

"I believe that Usyk, Joshua and Fury were nowhere close to being the three best HWs in the world in the early 2020s much less today"

This is such a bizarre claim. You are the only guy on this forum who believes this. Fury beat Wilder in 2020, 2021 and Whyte in 2022, all top 5 Ring ranked. Joshua beat Ruiz in late 2019 and Pulev in 2020 before losing to Usyk. Prior to that they had each beaten Wlad, along with the likes of Chisora x2, Cunningham, Whyte, Parker and Povetkin, with one loss between them. They had far and away the best records in the early 2020's, prior to Usyk beating them a combined four times. Usyk also beat Dubois x2, Chisora, and CW-HW's in Briedis, and future top 10 HW Ring ranked Hunter and Gassiev. No one over the period of 2020 to today comes close to Usyk's record, let alone him being outside the top 3. Who were your top 3 HW's at the end of 2020, 2021 and 2022?

Usyk, Fury and Joshua were "nowhere close to being" the top 3 HW's in the early 2020's is about as logical a statement as claiming Coopman and Dunn were "elite heavyweights", which you have also done in this thread.

The majority of Wlad's title reign was pretty bad by current standards. It starts with Byrd 2, a faded non-puncher who a green Wlad had dominated. Austin, shot Rahman, washed Brewster, washed already beaten Peter, 40+ faded Mormeck, 40+ faded Thompson 2, Wach, Pianeta, Leapai. The majority of Wlad's 2nd reign was sub-par, so much so that Brock, Chambers and Chagaev represent a step up.

Marciano losing a close decision to Patterson and going 49-1 would be considered proof of him being overrated and not an ATG. Maybe not to you, but overwhelmingly in general. Fury losing twice to Usyk, a much smaller man at that, is considered to be something of an exposure, righly or wrongly. Do you think Ward would have got any credit for losing twice to same size Beterbiev and Bivol? He knew he wouldn't, it would have ruined his legacy, so he retired at 33 to duck them even at the expense of a chance to win and big money.

 

I should have said ‘In all of his fights from and since his first world title fight’.

Sure, Joshua’s confidence was shot from the Ruiz fight, and IMO he never fully regained it since, but Usyk couldn’t help that, and when Joshua was at his peak, Usyk still had unfinished business at CW, and when Usyk did fight him, Joshua was still the unified world champion and everyone kind of saw the first Ruiz fight as a blip at the time, and he was still seen as the 2nd (at least) HW in the division.

The rematch, Usyk if anything, should be commended for running it back immediately with both the guys he beat for the title which very few do, and those 2 (Fury and Joshua) were obviously the best on paper at the time because they were the belt holders.

Dubois, he had a weird round against Lerena, but Dubois does weird things in the ring sometimes. He doesn’t like being in uncomfortable situations in the ring, which is one of his flaws, but he’s still a very dangerous fighter and was in form going into both Usyk fights.

Fury fights to the level of his opposition, he always has, and he clearly didn’t prepare mentally or physically for Ngannou, and didn’t go into it with the right expectation for what Ngannou was gonna bring, but you could see he was laser focused for Usyk, and it simply wasn’t enough due to Usyk’s greatness, despite Fury being elite himself.

 

Maybe 6-4 going into 11.

 

It's really not tho, especially when they are mostly pity-pat punches.

Well, you can be confident all you want, the father time is undefeated. We don't have to excuse anything. Wlad was 39, 3 years past his prime, and nobody expects boxers at this age beating top contenders. That's why it adds a lot to a legacy if you do something like that. Foreman who beat the champion at the age 45 is the only fighter who beat a Top 3 guy at this stage. It's also a consensus that Wlad enchanced his legacy by giving a good fight to a young hungry lion at the age of 41 who will then move on to be a best heavyweight in the world for 2 years.

Leapai was a WBO mandatory who upset highly ranked Denis Boytsov a fight before earning this spot. This is what real champions do - fight their mandatories. Rahman wasn't far removed from being a Top 10 guy. Wach was undefeated. Thompson II was a mandatory and rated in the Ring's Top 10. Chris Byrd was the best heavyweight on the planet in the second fight. Brewster was a Top 10 guy. Peter in the rematch was on the winnign streak and considered revitalized and in the best shape of his life. Wlad's title defences aren't far removed from Holmes' and Louis' when it comes to the level of opposition.

Valuev ducked both Wlad and Vitali and it's a well known fact.

 

Wlad looked pretty busted up after the fight. If they were just pitty pat, he would have been throwing more himself. But doing so would have meant being hit more, hurt, and gassing out.

Wlad may have been 3 years past his best but when you lose in lopsided fashion to a top contender and are never really in the fight from the first bell to the last, it raises major questions as to whether you would have won at any point.

The idea that Wlad improved his legacy by getting KO'd by an inexperienced AJ is laughable cope. Ruiz and Dubois destroyed him, Usyk shut him down x2. Wlad had a fighter who'd never been past 7 rounds and never been involved in a mega event there for the taking, and he flubbed it for 5 rounds before getting stopped himself in an ATG display of boxing choke artistry.

Those defences were largely poor and deliberately so. Someone like Boytsov only gets a No.1 ranking via corruption. From what Bonte said, it looks like K2 ducked Valuev. You have a doe-eyed naivity when it comes to the boxing matchmaking of Wlad and AJ. Comparisons with Joe Louis are not favourable to Wlad as Louis was famously fighting "a bum a month", and Holmes explicitly tried to get the easiest opponents for the most money while avoiding dangerous contenders.

 

Klitschkos had terrible skin. Sometimes their faces looked worse that they actually were. He wasn't throwing more for different reasons, not because Fury's punches were hurtting him.

He lost by 3 punches a round. It's perfectly plausible that a younger, more motivated Wlad with fresher legs and Manny in his corner could have done at least better to the point to win the decision. As far as we know, he could have right the wrongs in the rematch, but Fury ducked him.

Nope. Wlad's stock risen after that fight and you can find it in almost every publications at that time. Even his haters gave him props for the performance.

Yeah, 3 prime fighters. 2 of them in their 20's. 1 of them absolutely schooled in the rematch. 1 of them one of the GOATs.

At 41 he had a fighter who would become the best heavyweight in the world for 2 years. Young, hungry lion, packing a great punch, with a great warrior spirit, who got up to win a fight. Show me a 41 year HW old who beat a guy of prime AJ's class not named Foreman or Holmes.

That's just you talking out your ass with no proof to substantiate it.

Well, you need to do your research then.

Nah, you're just talking nonsense.

And Louis is considered a Top 2 HW and Holmes a Top 5 HW with a lot of fans having him Top 3. Not a bad company to be in.

 

Valuev was never publicly offered a fight with Wlad and turned down a title fight with Vitali post-Haye (which was Valuev’s final career fight), alleging unfair contractual obligations (apparently potentially four fights in total with the Klitschkos if he kept winning) and a “lowball” offer.

"Valuev wants it and I want it, but you can imagine how hard it is to deal with Don King." - Wlad, March 2007

In May 2006, K2’s manager Bernd Boente [url]poured cold water[/url] on the idea of a unification between Wlad and the undefeated Valuev despite it being highly lucrative, an intriguing fight (due to the massive size difference of 6 inches in height, 80 lbs in weight, plus the nationality clash) and one Wlad would have been heavily favoured by the bookmakers to win, on the basis that “It’s not a big fight outside Germany” (where most of their fights were being held), “Valuev didn’t really beat Donald and Ruiz” (so? comprehensively outbox or KO the giant then, if it's so easy) and “He’s not interesting or exciting to watch” (he's the biggest HW titlist in history and a unique stylistic matchup/at worst it's the same as usual for a K2 challenger).