Sonny Liston vs his biggest opponent Gehard Zech, 6'5, in good quality

Oh alphabet rankings , lol!

 

Folley won as many rounds against Ali in their 7 rds as Mildenberger did in their 12 rds.

Mildenberger was really only Euro level imo.66 Liston flattens him.

 

Are you just joining this conversation? I said when the WBA Tournament began, Karl Mildenberger was the #1 contender.

If you're going to insert yourself into an existing conversation, keep up.

And those were the rankings at the time.

Don't confuse then with now.

 

Well, the "Euro-level" guy fought about all the usual suspects as Liston AND MORE ... and he was at the top of the world ratings.

Liston wasn't.

And the "Euro level" guy gave Ali his toughest challenge of his first reign ... while Liston was Ali's easiest defense in TWO reigns.

 

Name the Ring ranked opponents Mildenberger beat. Midelnberger did not fight all the usual suspects Liston fought and when he fought common opponents he fared worse

No he didn't and when he did fight common opponents he usually fared worse,eg two gift hometown draws with Johnson and Folley both of whom Liston ko'd ,struggling to a dec win with Bailey who knocked him down multiple times. An old Liston demolished Bailey as he did Zech,Zech twice went the distance with Mldenberger. Liston was in front against Martin and had floored him Mildenberger wasnt in the fight with Martin. I saw Mildenberger outboxed and beat up by an old Cooper
until he fouled out to save himself from more punishment .
Liston ko'd a ranked Bethea in1 round ,an older Bethea when the distance with Mildenberger

Name the Ring ranked top ten Mildenberger beat? He fought old past it names or limited men like Walker.
Daniels had lost his last 3 fights.Rademacher never beat anyone and had lost 3 of his last 4 fights
Mildenberger was a cherry picker and usually had home advantage.
A washed up Richardson ko'd him in a round.

 

He didn't fair worse against a better version of Ali than Liston faced.

In fact, Karl arguably fought a better version of Ali than anyone other than Cleveland Williams, who fought Ali weeks later.

When they say Ali at his best was the greatest of all time, it was the 1966 version of Ali who fought Williams that year. (Weeks after Mildenberger.)

And at Ali's absolute peak, Karl gave Ali his toughest challenge of that reign. Far better than Liston ever did against a younger, greener Ali.

You act like Liston took Ali 12 rounds at his best, and Karl got stopped in one when Ali was greener.

When the OPPOSITE is true.

And the WBA/NBA was the ratings body at that time. It was the original ratings body. Even before Ring.

If you don't agree with my pick, fine. I could care less.

Karl fought better against Ali than Liston did. There's nothing you can say to change that.





Side Note: I just watched the Cooper-Mildenberger fight just now. Karl landed a brutal left to Cooper's face. Cooper fell into a clinch. When the ref separated them, Cooper was cut, and the ref immediately waived it off (even though the round was over) and awarded the fight to Cooper.

That's a screenshot of the left hand as Karl follows through (Cooper's head is still jolted by the initial punch). Notice, Karl's head is on the opposite side.

https://ibb.co/Hf0KV2XB

They fall into a clinch. The ref breaks them, and then stops the fight because they all just notice Henry is cut right where the punch landed. (Again, Karl's head was on the other side.)

https://ibb.co/398cTFzc

It was about as hometown a British call as there ever was. And British refs are known for their hometown calls. The cut was exactly where Karl landed his punch moments before Henry grabbed and clinched him.

Karl should've had a win over Cooper that night, too.

 

That guy is terrible. But he did land some good shots on Liston. Most of us know that Liston was relatively slow.

 

BS Mildenberger was using his head and I was ringside at Wembley.If you want to talk about home decisions start with the Mildenberger v Folley one!
"Veteran Zora Folley gave young Karl Mildenberger a boxing lesson Friday night but the judges evened it up and called it a draw - a verdict that stunned most of the 12,000 fans that jammed the Messehalle here to watch the two highly ranked heavyweights in what was billed as an elimination match. Folley carved out cuts under Mildenberger's eyes and repeatedly scored with solid left jabs and straight right hands over the southpaw efforts of the German challenger. By the end of the 7th round Mildenberger had cuts under both eyes while Folley bled from the nose as a result of Mildenberger's left. Referee Otto Nispel took it upon himself to stop the fight time and again to warn Folley on butting and in the 8th round Nispel stopped the fight while he took Mildenberger to his corner and wiped the blood off his face so a doctor could come to the ringside and examine the cuts. Mildenberger, although clearly outclassed, never stopped trying and absorbed a tremendous amount of punishment from the American. He was still trying gamely in the 9th and 10th while Folley was content to coast and that was all the judges seemingly needed." -European Stars & Stripes

• Unofficial Stars & Stripes scorecard - 7-2-1 Folley
• The UPI reported that Folley, "appeared to have the upper hand against his 26 year old opponent." While the AP reported that Folley, "appeared to have piled up a good margin. He gave the German a battering in the 7th and 8th rounds."

Post fight comments

• "When the referee stopped the fight to examine the cuts, that gave Mildenberger time to recuperate." -Bill Swift, Folley's manager, claiming that Folley had hurt Mildenberger with a flurry of hard shots to the head just before the referee intervened.

If you get a draw in Germany its usually because you really won!
MIldenberger won 2 rounds out of 12 against Ali.

"Mildenberger is getting a terrible beating,"Max Schmeling to Joe Louis,ringside.
The Ring ratings came out in the early 1920's when there were no other ratings!
I've asked you 3 times to name the Ring ranked opponents Mildenberger beat , you've ducked the question each time.

Mildenberger fared worse against the common opponents he had with Liston which was my statement ,and you haven't responded to that because its true,even though Liston was past prime and Mildenberger was prime!

 

I was ringside Mildenberger was using his head.Cooper was comfortably in front ,and the referee was Italian!
"Henry Cooper, 34 year old British heavyweight champion, grabbed the European title from Germany's Karl Mildenberger on an 8th round DQ at London's indoor Wembley Stadium Wednesday night. Cooper jabbed effectively with his left and was well ahead on points when Italian referee Nello Barroveccio disqualified the German for butting. Cooper, sporting a bad cut over his right eye, said his sights were now set on the WBA crown worn by Jimmy Ellis." -Associated Press
MIldenberger won 2 rounds against Ali!
If you want to talk about home decisions start with Mildenberger v Folley!
"Veteran Zora Folley gave young Karl Mildenberger a boxing lesson Friday night but the judges evened it up and called it a draw - a verdict that stunned most of the 12,000 fans that jammed the Messehalle here to watch the two highly ranked heavyweights in what was billed as an elimination match. Folley carved out cuts under Mildenberger's eyes and repeatedly scored with solid left jabs and straight right hands over the southpaw efforts of the German challenger. By the end of the 7th round Mildenberger had cuts under both eyes while Folley bled from the nose as a result of Mildenberger's left. Referee Otto Nispel took it upon himself to stop the fight time and again to warn Folley on butting and in the 8th round Nispel stopped the fight while he took Mildenberger to his corner and wiped the blood off his face so a doctor could come to the ringside and examine the cuts. Mildenberger, although clearly outclassed, never stopped trying and absorbed a tremendous amount of punishment from the American. He was still trying gamely in the 9th and 10th while Folley was content to coast and that was all the judges seemingly needed." -European Stars & Stripes

• Unofficial Stars & Stripes scorecard - 7-2-1 Folley
• The UPI reported that Folley, "appeared to have the upper hand against his 26 year old opponent." While the AP reported that Folley, "appeared to have piled up a good margin. He gave the German a battering in the 7th and 8th rounds."

Post fight comments

• "When the referee stopped the fight to examine the cuts, that gave Mildenberger time to recuperate." -Bill Swift, Folley's manager, claiming that Folley had hurt Mildenberger with a flurry of hard shots to the head just before the referee intervened.

The Rings ratings came out in the early1920s ,before anyone else's . The Ring invented them!
Mildenberger fared worse against the common opponents he had with Liston which was my statement .Also Liston was past his best whilst Mildenberger was prime. IN52 fights Mildenberger only fought outside of Germany twice and he had 3 draws on home soil
I asked you 3 times which Ring ranked top ten opponents Mildenberger beat,and you ducked the question each time!

 

the Ring only and no counting past 10, seems to be McVey's standard, which is ok,
but being stuck on that disqualifies a lot of Boxing Facts & fighters who were right there and worthy of their place... which was given them by Boxing people at their times. So how can they be excluded outright doesn't make sense nor reflect Boxing History.

but hey ho, that is his way and he will never shift on that, no matter how much citations you present.

 

Here is a citation he presented."Mildenberger did not fight Liston because he was after a title fight."
Wrong! he did not fight Liston because Mildenberger got thrashed and stopped by Martin!

"American Leotis Martin knocked out European champion Karl Mildenberger in the 7th round of a scheduled 10 rounder before 7,000 fans here Friday night. Mildenberger was down twice in the 7th round from a series of strong hooks before Dutch referee Ben Bril signaled the end (after the 3rd knockdown). The bell sounded when Bril reached 'two' on his count but according to the rules the count continued and Mildenberger was unable to move. He was carried to his corner by handlers, bleeding from the mouth. Martin quickly familiarized himself with Mildenberger's southpaw style and consistently landed long rights on his opponent's chin. Martin clearly won the first three rounds before Mildenberger appeared to rally as the lighter American seemed to tire from the fast pace. However, Martin closed the 6th round with a stinging left hook that signaled the beginning of the end." -Associated Press

• This bout scuttled plans for a proposed Sonny Liston - Karl Mildenberger bout later in the year. Also, British promoter Harry Levene stated he would lose interest in a Mildenberger - Henry Cooper bout for the European title if the German could not get past Martin. However, the Mildenberger - Cooper fight did take place several months later.
• I use Ring ratings because I find them more credible and having less of a self aggrandising agenda than the alphabet boys ones.Anyone who thinks the WBA's ratings are credible is suffering from a severe case of gullibility!
• Here's another example of home cooking bias in German refereeing!

"The sensation of the evening came in the interval to round seven, when the Bundes Deutscher Berufsboxer official, Gerhard Seewald, the appointed third man, had caught up with Machen's elbow when trying to part the boxers and fell backwards landing on his back. Helmut Bertram then took over the duties of third man on the grounds that Seewald was not fit enough to continue after his fall. Whatever the cause of this switch, Werner's decision saved the fight and the promotion. The crowd was not very pleased with Seewald's officiating up to this point. They had been calling for more action but whenever Machen went in close and proved superior at infighting, Seewald would pull him off. Machen, 33, was facing his first southpaw in 57 fights, and it certainly worried him. there were times when he did not know what to do. It also was his first fight since July 1965. Mildenberger, 28, was not prepared to take any chances. He couldn't afford to after his disappointing bouts with Dave Bailey and stable companion Gerhard Zech. He was content to coast along for a points win." Source?

Post fight comments

• "My strong point is infighting at the ropes. I just don't understand why the referee pulled us apart every time." -Eddie Machen.

 

that is good and the way it should be, acknowledge posters citations, discuss, agree or disagree... excellent.

though the first part of your Quote Reply, is not a citation but rather the posters statement.

he may have an actual citation confirming his statement, because even Sport Writers can & do disagree with one another, again the point being 'acknowledge' one another's 'actual' citations & reports, rather than just being hellbent on trying to be right and dismissive of one another.

Boxing History is full of conflicting citation, but the point is both opposites are in fact Real, whether one 'may' be inaccurate or not... I just don't understand why it is often someones 'default' to Own someone or destroy someone, especially if said someone is merely stating from citation and consensus.

That is Precisely what you want and should expect from research.

Double Chin (and others), is a very informed poster.

 

Im not dismissive of Dubble Chin,I'm dismissive of the WBA!
He cites the WBA as rating Mildenberger at no1 to hype Mildenberger as a better fighter than he actually was .


Here is the current WBA rating for the heavyweight division.
Champion Murat Gassiev
1.Itauma
2.Miller
3.Fury
4.Joshua
5.Hyso
6.Hrgovic
7.Houhannista
8.Pero
9.Suslenko
10 Ajagba

Is this a credible list?
Yes ?
No?
Dubble Chin states British referees are known for biased verdictsI say this is BS.He states this is the case inthe Mildenberger v Cooper fight when,in his opinion Mildenberger was robbed of the win because the referee was British.
Cooper was well in front on points and the referee was Italian!
So how ." actually well informed," is he?

 

NO, but are any ever fullproof?

I too agree with you about the Ring being the Annual go to place that the whole Boxing world awaits,

but they too can be a bit surprising and in some cases, and at times, 'influenced' with the Busine$$ side of Boxing.

I think it is a fair statement to think that in near any given period in Boxing History Ratings could have been 'corrected' in at least 1 or 2 placements throughout any given year.

and on top of the Business influence, which we all know IS Boxing, there are also Boxing Writers Ratings & Consensus, which can be equally valid or invalid.

it is a Business, Crooked, and up for scrutiny & consideration and throughout the 150 years of it, that accounts for a lot of great fighting men.