Who rates higher Willie Pep or Sandy Saddler

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, May 16, 2018.

  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    I think they are a smidge ahead personally. He doesn't match them in resume imo.
     
  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Can't really see Pep and Saddler around #6 and #7.

    No disrespect but many great scribes have poured over the division for hour after hour after hour and seldom if ever have Pep anywhere but 1 and Saddler is right up near the very top too. There's a reason said scribes are so consistent with this.
     
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  3. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Go and scour any list by respectable identities including our very own ESB scribe. They are plentiful.
     
  4. Lonsdale81

    Lonsdale81 Active Member Full Member

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    Even though Saddler technically won the series the rematch was a masterpiece for the ages.. to come back from the KO loss & completely outbox Saddler was a special moment in boxing.. Saddler was just a roughouse & bad style clash for Pep overall.. their later fights devolved into almost flat out brawls with at least one controversial ending due to Saddlers wrestling tactics.. Sandy was a great fighter but he was a dirty fighter & he also lost to fighters Pep had handily defeated such as DeMarco & Terranova .. it's Pep for me. Especially when u consider he was in a near fatal plane crash not long before their series began.
     
  5. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Their records in bouts contested at FW, allowing a few lbs for slightly over the linit non title fights:

    Pep:

    • Record - 140-7. Was 102-0 before the first Saddler fight.
    • World title record - 10-3, with reigns of 6-years and 18-months
    • Key wins - Saddler (1-3), Wright x 4, Bartolo x 3, Famechon, Riley, Compo, Sierra x 2, Leslie, Graves, Terranova, Ortiz, Lewis and Dade.
    • Losses in and around prime years - Saddler x 3

    Saddler:
    • Record - 72-5
    • World title record - 5-1, with reigns of 4-months and then 6 and a half years, when he retired.
    • Key wins - Pep (3-1), Famechon, Dade, Elorde, Riley
    • Losses in and around prime years - Sierra SD, Rosa SD, Pep (3-1) and Elorde (1-1).
    Their 4 x fight series is the obvious argument in Saddler's favour.

    Pep has the better numbers (especially in that utterly dominant 102-0 run at the weight), most crucially a much deeper win resume, whilst Saddler lost to worse fighters in and around his prime years. On balance, I think Pep had the greater FW career.
     
  6. Lonsdale81

    Lonsdale81 Active Member Full Member

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    Not necessarily.. Tunney beat Greb multiple times i still rate Greb higher. Holyfield Bowe & Armstrong Zivic would be other examples..
     
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  7. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Saddler. The fact that he stopped Pep three times can't be ignored.
     
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  8. Yorbals

    Yorbals Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Disagree.
    I think Pac was greater than Marquez and don’t think Pac beat him once, one fight was probably a draw.
    Pac has the greater resume outside of their fights.

    Whilst Pac maybe has the more obvious bigger name wins over Marquez compared to Pep-Saddler, Pep still has by far the greater career outside of their series.
    Factor in Pep’s injuries and surely somewhat diminished abilities, if even a little bit, Saddlers filthy tactics and the nature of the fights.

    It’s Pep who’s greater, In fact I don’t think it’s even that close.
     
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  9. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    There is an argument that Pep is greater. But he's not better.
     
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  10. Levook

    Levook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    If I were a list maker, both of these guys would probably be tied at number one featherweight LOL. Saddler beating Pep three to one is pretty tough to overcome, but was pre crash Willie good enough to beat Sandy a couple of times? Because if they were even at two fights each, I'd probably say pep was the number one featherweight.
     
  11. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Everyone knows Sandy is my guy.

    I think there is plenty of fair data on which to rate him above Pep:

    1) Head to head, obviously, with three stoppages in as many wins vs Willie.

    2) Saddler rates higher on both power and chin/durability (stopped once and only once … in his second fight.

    3) Didn’t lose the featherweight title in the ring. Suffered a detached retina in an auto accident and was forced to retire …no telling how long he might have held it if that never happened.

    4) Also simultaneously held the 130-pound title, which he also never lost in the ring.

    That’s a resume that puts anyone in the stratosphere.
     
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  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    This is like who was the better clarinet player,Artie Shaw or Benny Goodman?
    You pays your money and----.
     
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  13. Yorbals

    Yorbals Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As some others have stated, Sandy was allowed to employ his filthy tactics against Pep, the 3rd and 4th fights were street brawls as much as boxing matches. The bigger, younger, fresher, stronger Saddler is always going to have an advantage.

    It shouldn’t matter too much that Saddler won ther series, Marquez won the series with Pac or should have, and scored the only KO. No one puts him above Pac
    Norton should have won the series v Ali. No one puts him above Ali.

    Pep has almost a hundred more wins, and less losses.
    Pep by a distance
     
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  14. Lonsdale81

    Lonsdale81 Active Member Full Member

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    Pep was such a great fighter man.. beat Willie Joyce who has three wins over Ike Williams & two over Henry Armstrong.. just legendary fighters.. then throw in his other wins like Chalky Wright X4, Sandy Saddler, Manuel Ortiz.. just an incredible resume all in all.. should be a lock for most peoples top 10 all time.
     
  15. Lonsdale81

    Lonsdale81 Active Member Full Member

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    It's not that cut & dry.. 3rd fight was stopped due to a dislocated shoulder caused by Saddlers illegal roughouse tactics .. during the sixth and seventh rounds Saddler repeatedly initiated the grappling and wrestled Pep to the canvas.. It was during one of these that the injury occurred.. Saddler is widely known as one of the dirtiest fighter's in boxing history who somehow managed to drag the sublime Pep down to his level, especially in the 4th encounter.. that is a feat in itself no doubt but the manner of the victories are questionable & context matters.