The most unjust victory ever given to Ali

Holding and hitting is a big no no which will attract the referee's gaze.

 

I agree.

Norton should have beaten Messi essily, but the referees keep using the var to deduct points.

 

I agree. Ali should have been red carded, or at least with a yellow.

Without the blatant favors from the referee Ali never reachs the semi finals.

 

Were BOTH fixed ? I’ve heard allegations that the second fight was but not the first

 

I’ve seen countless instances of timekeepers communicating the correct count to referees, who then pick it up.

That and ring the bell at intervals of 3 minutes and 1 minute are literally the timekeeper’s only job.

They had a relatively inexperienced ‘celebrity’ ref (a not unheard-of circumstance back in the day … the idea was that it would somehow help ticket sales — I guess just by raising the profile of the fight when they’d get an extra article in the newspaper with the announcement).

He was far from perfect.

But give me an instant of a fight continuing after the timekeeper informs the ref that the loser was down for a 10-count (as kept by the official timekeeper).

You are the one who suggested Ali should have been DQ’d or it been called a no contest.

Merely saying ‘could have’ does not an argument make.

And while I guess the ref ‘could have’ made them take off the gloves and go at it bare-knuckled, it’s not an option in the rules of boxing … nor are any of the options you suggested.

Ground your argument in the rules of boxing and we can continue the discussion.

 

Sonny would have stumbled over for longer than a 10-count after missing the PK.

What Liston never would have gotten in either match with Ali was extra time … he couldn’t stay around long enough.

 

lol you wrote all of that out but didn't name a single instance.

 

If you’ve never seen a ref look to the timekeeper to pick up a count, you haven’t ever watched boxing. It’s so commonplace that no occurrence comes to mind. I’m not going to go on a scavenger hunt to find one but either (a) you really don’t watch or pay attention to boxing or (b) you know it happens,

You haven’t provided any instance of a DQ for not going to the neutral corner fast enough nor a no contest for a ref belatedly realizing a fighter stayed on the ground too long to continue. Not to mention any case of a ref being informed by a timekeeper that a fighter failed to beat the count and the referee shrugging and restarting the fight.

You are the one who named the Ali-Liston II result as being an unjust victory for Ali, and you’ve provided zero rationale within the rules to call that fight one.

You are and always have been a troll on here. I wish you’d assess that and see if you can actually contribute. Who knows … you might actually have it in you.

Put up or sit down.

 

Ali-Norton III without question in my mind.

Norton stating that he should’ve gone out to win the 15th and final round isn’t evidence that Ali legitimately won, imo.

Rather, Norton likely meant that he should’ve accounted for judging bias more than he did and that he still should’ve gone out in round 15 to truly seal the deal.

His reasoning to play it safe in round 15 is still bemusing in its own right. I never saw Ali seriously hurt Norton during the preceding 38 rounds they had fought - and if Ali did ever hurt Ken it certainly wasn’t during the course of the rubber match.

The commentary also gives it away…basically, preemptively lamenting as to how the sport of boxing would survive without Ali.

When Ali merely danced without punching, the commentary team waxed lyrical to excess - using Ali’s dancing as a weak trigger - they couldn’t help themselves from recalling a far more viable version of Ali…rather than the actual fighter boxing right in front of them.

 

Liston didn’t get a count in the Ali rematch. He had to be counted over in order to have been counted out.

It’s often argued that the meter of a count is entirely subject to referee discretion - it’s not a discretionary power to deem a fighter counted out without an actual count applied.

Ali never properly retreated. Ali danced around Liston, celebrating victory before Liston had even been down for a literal 10 seconds.

Counts are reasonably picked up from timekeepers and verbally tolled after the short time it takes for a fighter to willingly get to a neutral corner.

The onset of a count can also be literally delayed (see Tunney-Dempsey II) when a fighter clearly refuses to retreat…with the passing of seconds in the meantime being duly mooted and not accounted for.

When Liston fell back down Ali was in fact fast approaching to buzz the Liston tower yet again. That’s why it looked like a fake attempt to arise - Liston actually fell down to stay out of harm’s way as opposed to feigning that he was still hurt.

Ali was acting like a lunatic who might do anything beyond the rules…and Dundee had previously stated that Liston, for all his intestinal fortitude otherwise, wasn’t too fussed about unhinged people.

When Ali was finally standing clear (or at least better than anytime prior to) with Walcott in between, Liston did arise.

Ali broke the rules. Walcott broke the rules - including on Fleischer’s advice. Liston broke no rules but was falsely deemed to have been “counted”’out.

Did Ali also break the rules in somewhat similar fashion upon the first KD of Bonavena in round 15? I believe that he clearly did in that instance also.

I don’t think the citing of infractions by other HW Champs answers or negates the question of some of Ali’s perceived infractions .

Those other HW Champs have been duly grilled for same, not least being Mike Tyson - Ali is not immune to equal critique.

 

Ali got favourable scoring in a lot of his fights. With different judges it's very likely that he would not be seen as the #1 HW by many. I seem to remember that Shavers really tuned him up and somehow Ali's powder puff combos got the points. Uh, ok.

 

I definitely believe Sonny tanked the second fight--but not the first. (He came into the first fight WAYYYY overconfident and more or less trained for a 2-3 round bout tops. Sonny was completely caught off guard by how fast and sharp Ali was and his lackluster training and preparation caught up with him!)

 

any controversy with the 2nd fight with spinks? Never watched most of Ali’s fights in full after Frazier 3 cos I find them boring as hell an hard to watch but since everyone wanted Ali to win the spinks rematch an make history was it actually closer than everyone seems to say it was?

 

Jimmy Young. I know he had his head sticking out of the ropes 4 times, but he outboxed the hell out of Ali.

Norton III was a toss up in my eyes and Ali definitely beat Shavers.

Liston I was a legit win but Liston II was a shitshow due to Walcott's errors.

 

Ali schooled Spinks in the rematch.