Joe Frazier vs Usyk

Usyk threw 900 plus punches per fight at cruiserweight

That seems like a work rate comparable to Frazier

 

Some excellent responses on this thread.

 

Comparable? Did you miss the word "advantage"? Does he maintain this as a heavyweight? Against a bloke that hits hard? Against a bloke smashing his body and draining him over the course of the fight?

 

Frazier's workrate is being exaggerated to mythical, folk hero levels in this thread, frankly

They released punch stats for his fights, so it's not like it's something that can't be referenced. As I mentioned in my earlier post, Chisora threw 625 punches against Usyk (52 punches per round), and FOTC Frazier threw 674 (45 punches per round). Joe threw a higher % of power shots, but Chisora was nonetheless throwing that much while 50 pounds heavier.

I think there's this conception that whatever workrate is out there today, Joe would just automatically throw way more than that. That just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If someone wants to say Joe'll find a way to keep getting inside on Usyk despite the height and reach disadvantage and being blind to Usyk's lead hand, that's one thing- Joe never fought a southpaw so it can't be proven or disproven. The workrate thing though? That's just math and easily verifiable.

 

Yes nut lets not leave out speed ... Frazier was much faster ... effective pressure .. if you're trying to build a case that Chisora was better than Frazier , I disagree. It is not just punch stats and you should understand that.

 

Superior number of power shots thrown within comparable punch stats are no small detail and they can actually make all the difference.

Stats aside, we can see that Frazier was absolutely relentless, punching uniformly hard and carrying his power through to the later rounds as and when necessary.

Frazier almost had an iron chinned Ali out in round 11 of the FOTC and in fact dropped a 215 lb Muhammad hard with an ATG left hook in round 15 - despite the battering that Joe himself had already absorbed.

Also, we have to perhaps be mindful not to blend CW Usyk with HW Usyk to create a composite fighter than never actually existed all at the one time during Olek’s career.

 

Your exact words were that Joe had "far superior punch output". I disagreed with that point and sourced why I did.

The rest of your post is simply redirection. It'd have been easier to just say I had a point but it's not changing your mind, which is a perfectly fine stance.

 

I agree with your critiques of the replies you are addressing. With that being said, Frazier's acclaimed work rate doesn't just address his punch output, but his tactics like:

- constant and erratic head movement, especially his punching off his slips and such at unpredictable times
- feinting and milling (keeping his hands, particularly his famed left, in constant movement)
- using his lower centre of gravity to drive opponents to the ropes when they grabbed and leaned

I am a new boxing fan, so correct me if I'm wrong but work rate doesn't just encompass punch output, but also movement and overall pressure. Frazier's methods of outworking and wearing down his opponents through pressure extend far beyond his output.

 

I like those counterpoints. There were components to what made fighting Joe exhausting beyond just raw output, and I think you captured that well. Usyk is a bit of a cardio monster himself, and I'd have loved to see how they would've shown out over the course of the distance.

For the record, though I favor Usyk, I can't say it'd be a huge upset if Joe won- I've probably seen 1000 fights that'd have been bigger ones. I like Frazier. Ultimately, I ended up on the Usyk side of the fence for a couple key assumptions:

1) Joe's lack of exposure to southpaws not just from a fight perspective, but from a sparring one. Joe's a hell of a fighter and will present unique challenges to Usyk, but I nonetheless think it's a bigger adjustment to try to figure things out on fight night from Joe's perspective. I don't think it's appropriate to mention the strength of an era without mentioning its weakness, and one weakness of that golden age is that southpaws were still extremely underrepresented given the bias against them. 20-30 years later, Evander and Wlad were still getting upset by southpaws below their level in part due to lack of exposure. His entire bobbing and weaving offense was calibrated for orthodox fighters, from the footwork up. That's going to be a challenge to figure out on the fly.

2) Lead foot dominance to counteract Frazier's vision. This is where the fight's going to be won or lost IMO. If Joe can establish that, he can whip left hooks to the body, and that's got to be his money punch since he lacks the right hand to have success the way Briedis did. If he can't do that, this fight could look more lopsided than it should given each man's class. Why? With Joe's left eye vision (ie, legally blind) Usyk establishing outside foot dominance means Joe won't be able to see Usyk's jab and right hooks from that angle, and Joe won't have the right angle to get maximum damage on his hooks

It's cool if someone favors Joe in it, but I'm too OCD to handwave away point two as a lot of people are doing. . Ultimately, I found there were fewer benefits of the doubt I had to give to Usyk, so that's who I'm favoring. Doesn't mean I'd be right, of course. Win or lose, I'd have loved to see it.

 

Fair enough. I myself initially favoured Frazier, but the reasons you and other folks brought up earlier in the thread definitely made me reconsider.

 

Both men are / were in superb condition.

I don't think it matters 10, 12, or 15.

It's a 50 / 50 fight.

 

Comparing Chisora and Frazier is a joke.

Despite Chisoras official stats, he can't sustain high levels of power late in the fight. It doesn't matter if he can throw a similar volume of punches. Chisora's power and accuracy greatly diminishes in fights later on so his punches are more like slaps.

Chisora may be able to score an occasional knockdown late in the fight but he basically throws slappy shots late in the fight mixed in with an occasional hard one. I recently watched the Usyk fight and Chisora's stamina is so poor, he was throwing slaps at Usyk late in the fight.

Frazier didn't just throw volume. He threw hard hard shots throughout the fight. His punches didn't lose steam late in the fight the way Chisora's do.

Chisora also can't apply pressure as well as Frazier. Chisora has slow feet and his feet get even slower as the fight progresses because he is carrying 30 lbs of excessive bulk.

Frazier is superior to Chisora in every way. Far better head movement, harder to hit, far quicker feet, far better body puncher, sustains power in his shots from round 1 to 15, far more exhuasting to deal with because he doesn't leave you alone to take a breather.

Usyk's fans have elevated him to mythical proportions. The guy couldn't keep Beterbiev off him, yet we are supposed to believe his magical footwork will somehow keep the greatest ring cutter in heavyweight history off him.

 

There's some factors you're missing out on though.

Forgetting raw numbers Frazier would consistently hit hard from round 1 to 15 without ever gassing or losing his technique. Plus having a very high energy style bobbing and weaving and throwing bombs consistently for 45 minutes.

Chisora throws alot of sloppy punches gets wild and his technique abandons him and he's also not of the calibre of Frazier.

Hence Frazier would be a bigger threat than Chisora.

I've always felt like Frazier, Tyson, are some of the worst stylistic match ups for Usyk, swarmers are always issues for boxer types.

And Usyk wouldn't be able to keep Frazier off him who would be consistently pressuring Usyk and hammering him to the body.

And unlike Chisora well Frazier isn't going to gas late on in the fight he gets stronger as the fight goes on and that's a big problem for Usyk.

 

I would prefer to use the cruiserweight version of Usyk for all matchups pre 90s

Frazier threw 631 for Ali one landing 378
And 674 for Ali three landing 354