Is Usyk a Top 10 Heavyweight of all time?

Every era where a non-american fighter(s) dominates is weak and garbage... At least according to the Boxing experts.

So no.

 

Top 10 easily lol

 

Yes, you can only fight who you can.

But your resume is going to come under scrutiny, where it’s compared to others.

Regarding Joe, the SMW division isn’t as old as the HW division, where most of the best fighters only had a brief stay there.

 

I have Usyk in the bottom half of the top 10 all time heavyweights but it is debatable.

- There is no such thing as saved by the bell. If Cooper was good enough to land a shot on Clay/Ali earlier during the rounds, he would have accomplished it in 2 fights. The only reason he even landed was because a young cocky Clay was coasting at the end of a round. So it isn't Ali that was lucky that the shot landed close to the bell. Cooper simply could not have landed that shot earlier in the round in either fight.

It is Cooper was a massive puncher. You keep calling him Bivol sized but fail to mention that Usyk was decked twice by the Bivol sized Beterbiev. And yes, both were legit and legal body shots. Its that Usyk pretended the shot wasn't legal when it clearly was.

- Holmes was stopped at 38 (after making 20 title defenses and being away for 2.5 years) but a 22 year old rampaging Mike Tyson.

Usyk has never faced a fighter who has the combination of Mike Tyson's speed, combination punching, head movement, power, punch variety and durability. Do you really think a 38 year old Usyk would have a prayer of not being stopped by Tyson? Perhaps Usyk could beat Tyson in his prime but he would stand zero shot vs a 22 year old Tyson when he was 38 himself. Given how easily a slower fighter like Beterbiev closed the distance vs a young Usyk, Tyson would rampage through a 38 year old Usyk. So its hardly a fair comparison.

- Oleksandr Usyk lost amateur fight via 'mercy rule' after being dropped and battered by opponent | talkSPORT

I have no idea if this is true or not but Usyk was allegedly stopped in the amateurs. Doesn't matter to me. I don't count it against him even if it is true. Regardless, i don't see why you are bringing up amateur stoppages to make the case for Usyk.

 

It's probably a more balanced argument as to where he falls in the P4P All Time list

 

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I would most casually put Usyk here instead of Jack Johnson

 

Usyk is a genius.

But we’ve discussed this before.

You cannot make those kinds of direct comparisons.


Every fighter has different circumstances.


Again, we do not know what would have happened had he have turned pro earlier, where he’d have had double the amount of professional fights.

We do not know if he’d have burned out quicker.


Nobody expected guys like Rahman and McCall to have beaten Lennox.

Yes, Usyk could easily have beaten them.

But the point is, boxing throws up surprises like that, when guys have 40-50 pro fight careers, where they’re consistently fighting 2-3 per times per year, for 15 years straight.


You put far too much emphasis on his amateur and WSB career.

Fighting from when he was 15, and in 3-5 round fights of all different levels.


Yes, it has to be respected.

Yes, it causes wear and tear.

But more wear and tear than having 40-50 camps and fights, against mostly world level guys, in professional fights?


We saw what happened with Rico.

He looked a little lethargic to me and disinterested.

And whilst that struggle doesn’t affect his greatness or his ranking in any way, the point is, in a 40-50 fight pro career, and at HW, he could have had a Rico type opponent or performance earlier, due to various reasons.

 

Great post.

You cannot do direct comparisons for obvious reasons.

 

To me, without a doubt.

1. He was the best heavy of the era post-Klitschko, through his own abdication, and beat the #2, #3, and #4 twice each. That is a unique accomplishment. It is something guys like Dempsey, Holmes and Klitschko didn't do, all of whom failed to ther second guy of their era even once, and/or owed a rematch for a close one.

2. Many say the cruiserweight fights don't matter--but they do, indirectly. No, you can't site a win over Murat Gassiev or Mairis Briedis directly, because they happened at cruiser. But bossing the two divisions make him a Pound per pound great. Well, at 6'3 and with a fighting weight around 220, he became a historically massive heavy. For anyone who says this doesn't matter--what does pound per pound mean do you? Do you understand what you are saying when you use the phrase? Pound per pound greatness trumps heavyweight greatness, and if he is walking in heavier than most of the heavies you are comparing him to...

He's walking in heavier than Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Muhammed Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman in his title-winning effort, Larry Holmes in his prime years, Mike Tyson in his prime years, and Evander Holyfield.

What does pound per pound mean to you?

Yes, a couple of these guys, notably Louis and Ali, are great enough so that they are also pound per pound greats, despite only fighting at heavy. Arguably a few others. But I think we just have to accept that a lot of these guys that people are putting on their top ten are both smaller, and not on his greatness scale at all--so by what metric do they measure up?

Yeah, greatest cruiser of all time, top ten heavy, and pound for pound great.

POST SCRIPT:
Hey, why no poll?

 

I think Usyk is phenomenal. But I have him slightly outside my HW top ten simply because his run there is comparatively short.

 

You keep repeating the same argument over and over.

Cooper was never close to stopping Ali. Never. The fact you keep grasping at this over and over again shows desperation. Ali wasn't lucky; Cooper simply was not capable of landing that same punch earlier in any round, which is why he couldn't do it.

Amateur fights have nothing to do with pro success. It wouldn't matter if Usyk went 1000-0 in the amateurs. It has no bearing on the title of this thread: which is, is he a top 10 all time heavyweight? Constantly bringing up the same talking points doesn't change the actual topic.

 

Ha!