Anthony Joshuas career is a disappointment

I completely see now that you haven't understood
I will try and explain again. If you don't get it this time, fair enough, though I expect you will say you do understand but don't agree etc, but that's fine. Enough time wasted for both of us.

Whyte was working to get a title shot and in trying to get it had to fight through various contenders/opponents Joshua, Chisora, Chisora, Rivas, Browne, Helenius if you want him added, Povetkin, Parker.

Now when Whyte finally got a title shot it was against Fury
We can agree on the above, yes?

Now Wilder got his first title shot against Stiverne
Wilders defences outside of the 2 defences against Fury were arguably not against opponents as good as Joshua, Parker or Povetkin. Maybe not Rivas either, possibly not Chisora either
Now I agree the 2 Fury defences were big good defences and a bigger opponent than anyone Whyte had challenged, but we are talking overall when Wilder was defending and Whyte was challenging to contend

Now if you feel Molina, Arreola, Washington, Ortiz, Ortiz, Breazeale, Duhaupas, Szpilka, Stiverne with the 2 x Fury defences overall is better than who Whyte had to face to build up for a title shot then fair enough
I don't see it
Szpilka lost to Chisora
Washington lost to Chisora
Duhaupas lost to Povetkin but also lost to Teper, who lost to Wach who Whyte beat years before Fury
Arguably Ortiz big win is Jennings and Rivas also beat him

Now if you don't feel overall at that time Whyte was potentially doing more as a contender than Wilder as a champion
Fair enough

Now when Wilder was looking to work his way back to a title shot, he had to take some big fights Parker, and although sandwiched between losses, 41 year old Zhang and later a 42 year old Chisora (you may notice that i have put some of the ages like you like to)

Now I would agree that the Fury defences were big decent opponents, but we are looking overall during that time

 

I think that is a good fair point

 

Your argument comes down to "you think Wilder fought better opponents, I don't see it"

I'm not giving Whyte credit for being a contender, and deducting points for Wilder for being a 10 defence champion. It goes the other way if anything as it is harder with a belt and a target on your back.

To just take the best of each man's list, every victory above Helenius level:

Fury x3, Ortiz x2, Stiverne 1, Chisora, Parker, Zhang

4-4-1 against this list, 2 KO wins, 3 losses by KO

AJ, Chisora x2, Parker, Rivas, Povetkin 1, Fury, Itauma

4-4 against this list, 1 KO win, all losses by KO

I suspect Wilder would score 5 wins vs Whyte's list (beats one of AJ and Parker, beats Chisora twice, Rivas, 2020 Povetkin, loses to Fury and then Itauma when shot), scoring 3 KO's, maybe 4.

I suspect Whyte would get to and beat Stiverne 1 but by the time his 40th fight came round vs Ortiz, Whyte would be shopworn (far fewer early KO's than Wilder, less naturally durable than Wilder, brawler style) and Ortiz would KO him. He'd then lose to Fury, Ortiz again, and everyone henceforth save perhaps Tyrell Herndon.

 

He didn't fight Parker, Chisora or Zhang whilst Champion, re-read what I said....He only fought them AFTER he lost his belt, because he had no other choice. It was retire, or stop fighting tin cans. No surprise he then got dominated by Parker and Zhang, looking many levels below both, because he's always been many levels below both.

Seriously? None of the following guys were available? Joshua, Usyk, Parker, Povetkin, Klitschko, Ruiz, Fury (Until the WBC thought he was too far gone), Chisora, Whyte, Joyce, Zhang, Sanchez, Hrgovic, Miller....I'm sure there's more....But how on earth does a 5 year WBC belt holder manage to avoid all of those?

Joshua fought Klitschko, Parker, Ruiz, Whyte, Povetkin etc....They were ALL AVAILABLE.

Every guy in that list above was available, and still are nearly all available.

 

Fury and Ortiz weren't on Wilder's path to a title shot....He was a Champion before fighting either.

Malik Scott, Jason Gavern and Bermane Stiverne was Wilder's path to a WBC World title lol. Deontay would never have been a World Champion if he wasn't from the US.

So you're putting Wilder to beat Parker? The guy he already lost to and was dominated for 12 rounds?

Whyte's victories are considerably superior.

If Wilder had to actually earn his way to a belt, he'd never have been World Champion.

 

While champion he fought the best HW in the world 3x, and a top 6 contender for a 5 year period twice. His level of competition was consistently very high post-2017 and even the likes of Helenius and Breazeale are arguably top 10 on AJ's win record.

If you fight Fury 3x and Ortiz 2x, that is 5 high level fights, 3 at the highest level. And if you suffer back to back brutal KO defeats at the highest level, that keeps you out for some time.

You mention Chisora, Miller, Zhang, Hrgovic, Fury, Joyce, Sanchez...how many did AJ fight? Throw in Ortiz. Wilder fought four of them a collective seven times.

I do not see why fighting Parker, Zhang and Chisora after Wilder was shot discredits him. If anything it shows a high degree of bravery, taking on physical and reputational risks while he was well past his best. He could have very easily protected his record by retiring after Fury 3 or Helenius.

Zhang and Parker are relative footnotes in the era whose best name win is a shot Wilder. Even on this forum, Wilder is held in higher regard than either.

 

If being American was why Wilder became champion, why were there no American champions in the 7.5 years between Briggs and Wilder?

Prime Wilder was better than Stiverne, Martin, Parker, Ruiz. He'd have KO'd AJ too, who doesn't have the chin, the defence or the mentality to be favoured against Wilder. If he'd been a UK HW he would have snagged a belt, just as Wardley and Dubois did later.

Parker would lose to a prime Wilder just as he lost to lower level HW's like prime Whyte, prime Joyce and prime Wardley. Even a non-shot Chisora got a B-side split decision vs Parker. Parker would have beaten shot versions of all of the men he lost to.

 

Correct on every point here.

To reiterate HW boxing is not a sport where you become a world champion just because you are American. The only thing notable is how the WBC does allow its champion to make easy defences, people forget a lot of Vitali's defences as WBC champion were not vs the best opposition out there.

On your points on who Prime Wilder beats- spot on. On the key match up, no way in hell does AJ stand up to Wilder's power, its lights out.

 

Maybe on the first two, but we'll never know on the second two because a "prime Wilder" was busy taking on journeymen, with the exception of Fury (who beat Wilder twice, arguably three times) and Ortiz (who Wilder did beat twice). When Wilder finally did take on Parker (as a huge favourite, mind you) he was soundly outboxed 12-0.

And while I'd favour a prime Wilder to beat AJ, it's not by much and largely depends on who lands first.

 

Joshua was never going to be a great HW, he lacked the skill. He has some decent wins but not great...a fading Wlad, Pulev and Povetkin, Parker, Ruiz, Wallin, Whyte, and made short work of Ngannou who gave Fury one of his toughest fights. He was willing to fight an undefeated Wilder, but Wilder priced himself out.