Joe Frazier vs Usyk

Let's clear some things up, shall we? I'll happily lay out my case one last time because people should see my biases and assumptions and judge for themselves. I don't pretend I'm unbiased and don't trust those who claim they are, because it's a lie and we all have them. We're all making judgment calls here.

1) Joe would absolutely give Usyk a hard night's work. He was a beast to fight and by no means do I think Usyk's going to leave not knowing he's been in a fight. The only reason it may look easier than expected is if Joe can't adjust to the right jab and hook at all. I think he would to an extent, but not enough to win.

2) My whole argument isn't that Usyk automatically wins because he's a southpaw. That's too simplistic. It's because I don't think Joe's personal physical tools are what's necessary to favor Joe overcoming him. Joe has no track record against southpaws, but there's other great heavyweights that have no to minimal exposure to them that I give a higher chance of beating Usyk than I do Joe. Holmes did lousy against them in the amateurs, but I think pro Larry was much better suited to them. Ali and Louis. Lennox. A scaled up Marciano actually would've given him a lot of issues IMO (the real one being too small) with the combination of brawling and the short right hand Usyk's susceptible to (per the Briedis fight). It's not that I rate Usyk as invincible, but in what I view as his weaknesses, Joe's not positioned to exploit enough of them to win.

Here's the main points that stop me from picking Joe:
a) Lack of a right hand
b) Blind in his left eye, which is Usyk's lead hand
c) I think Usyk's got the better defensive footwork and will cut the angle off Joe's left hook enough. Not shut it down completely, but enough.

Addendum: The Chisora fight, frankly, has been beaten to death. Joe's a much more skilled, educated pressure fighter that's 50 pounds lighter and was great at countering in the pocket. Chisora was a rugged brawler willing to take some to give some and turn it ugly to a guy he outweighed by almost 40 pounds, and still lost like 8-4 to me. That's not a real needle-mover to me. Will Joe land some left hooks to the body? Sure. I just don't think he's going to land enough of them, and I don't think Usyk's going to melt from the one's Joe lands.

Speaking of "visual evidence" as you do, let's take that pun and run with it, as I can't help but notice you've again completely neglected point b.

I'll be clear about this: I RATE IT AS A TREMENDOUS DISADVANTAGE FOR JOE THAT HE'S LEGALLY BLIND IN THE EYE CLOSEST TO USYK'S LEAD HAND. I've outlined before what I think Joe would have to do to beat that. I don't think he would.

That's my methodology & assumptions. Not trying to win you over or change your mind, but people should at least see where I'm coming from. I could easily be wrong about any number of 'em. Either way, I've posted plenty enough on this thread. Cheers

 

Frazier historically has never struggled against boxer types.

Usyk wouldn't have success just darting around the ring trying to score jabs you have to stand your ground and halt the swarmers forward momentum.

Ali had to stand his ground and unleash heavy punches whilst absorbing brutal body punishment that I don't believe Usyk couldn't stand up to.

I haven't neglected any of your points I just don't agree with them.

I don't believe Frazier needs a straight right hand to beat Usyk. His stylistic advantage of being an ATG swarmer against a boxer type who can't halt Fraziers forward momentum is a major problem for Usyk.

There's also the body attack of Frazier that I don't believe Usyk could withstand. And Usyk also wouldn't have the cardio advantage late on in the fight like he has with some of these bigger Heavyweights.

As for Frazier being blind well it didn't stop him bobbing and weaving and evading punches from a Heavyweight with quicker hands than Usyk in Ali.

So I believe Usyk could slip Usyk's punches and force him in the trenches.

As for Chisora the point I was making is that you keep on about Frazier struggling to get his offence going because of the footwork and the fact he doesn't have a straight right hand.

Well Chisora hasn't exactly got the best feet and he's a clubbing puncher yet he still had plenty of success he just tired down the stretch which Frazier wouldn't.

As for visual evidence I think it's a good point.

We have evidence of Usyk being troubled by pressure fighters.

Where as Frazier normally convincingly beat boxer types.

Even Ali who would be considered a boxer type couldn't box against Frazier and was forced to fight in the trenches that I don't believe Usyk could replicate.

As I alluded to earlier Ali could take body punches better than any Heavyweight in history.

Unless you're a real concussive hitter who can stop Fraziers forward momentum then you're in a world of trouble.

And I don't believe Usyk's style matches up well against Frazier or Tyson.

 

Fair enough. We see things differently, and I appreciate your perspectives. Thanks for the debate!

 

Same to you mate have a good one.

 

Hi Guys.
So nice to see, props to you both.
Mike.

 

After seeing Usyk struggle against Chisora I always thought Frazer would give him hell, but you do have to take in to consideration that Frazier is much smaller, weaker and less powerful than Chisora.

 

Frazier also managed to crack The Ring's top ten during his career.

 

The focus on the Chisora fight is a bit odd. It was one of his first fights at heavyweights against an unranked opponent with a dozen losses who he was expected to easily beat. He probably wasn't motivated and didn't feel he had anything to prove but despite that he appeared to win clearly outlanding Chisora in 9 rounds.

It seems like high profile bouts would be a much better barometer

 

Have you picked a winner in this fight yet?

 

Probably Usyk 7-5 but if Frazier has access to PEDs like what Miller was on he might be able to win.

Realistically Frazier would probably be on roids if he were here today

 

The problem with high profile bouts at heavyweight are that they all came against guys who are bigger, harder hitting but also considerably slower than Frazier with much worsr stamina.

I mean Joshua himself said he can't sustain the work rate of smaller heavyweights in his meltdown after the second fight. Dubois is clueless at cutting the ring and his head movement is awful. Fury has spent his whole career abusing his body by balooning up and down in weight, and he simply can't sustain a high work rate for 12 rounds. Fury needs breathers and often slaps with his punches in order to give his body some rest.

Frazier is very different from these guys. He is short, stocky, he will make Usyk miss more than anyone he has fought in any weight class. He isn't going to slow down after six rounds. In fact, he is going to pick up the pace.