The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

Marciano wasn’t fast tracked. Really bringing race into it now? Was Joe Louis fast tracked w his three years? Ali? Foreman? Tyson? Patterson? Etc. We are just making stuff up now?
3-5 years seems the most common time for the greats.

also Walcott was a weird case as was Charles who moved up. Moore was never HW champ.

 

I see comparisons by some to Sonny Liston - Liston was listed as 6" ft 1/2 inches so we can make him 6"1 but let's look at how many fighters Liston fought that weighed over 200 lbs. and the quality of fighters.

the best was Ali

Ali 206lbs KO Liston in 1

Ali 210 tko Liston retired in 6

Floyd Patterson was 6" and under 200 lbs. Liston's 2 best wins
Machen was probably the next best fighter Sonny faced but was sub 200 lbs.


The next best of the bunch by name was an already older and often beaten 211 lb. Nino Valdes (In Valdes 2nd to last fight, who was already stopped by sub 200lb Eddie Machen, dominated and dropped for a 9 count by 5"10 180 lb. Bob Satterfield, beaten by 5"10 176 lb. Harold Johnson. Beaten 2X by Archie Moore who weighed 180 for their 1st fight.

Big Cat Williams 210 1/4 lb. (who was already KO'd and flattened by 5"10 180 Bob Satterfield - Big Cat already had a 35-1-1 record and was dropped 2X in the 3rd the 2nd KD he was out cold.

The biggest man Liston fought was Gerhard Zech who was 6'5 and 226 lbs. and Sonny KO'd Zech in 7 but to gauge the quality of Zech (Zech was ko'd in 2 rounds 8 months earlier by Dave Bailey 14-14-3 - Bailey lost 8 fights in a row prior to the Zech fight, in one KO in 1 losses Baily was stopped by light heavyweight Bob Foster in 1.

Let's not forget Marty Marshall went the distance with Sonny in 3 of 4 fights, beat Sonny in 1 of them and the last fight was in 1956 went 10 rounds and Marty weighed 179 lbs. and was 6" in that fight (Prior to fighting Sonny Marty Marshall was ko'd 2X by Embrell Davidson (Davidson was ko'd in 1 by Archie Moore) Marshall also lost to 174 lb. Harold Johnson in 1954

As for Marciano - the Vingo fight was a big win for a young contender for the east coast fans - Vingo was always listed as 6"4 and you can see in the Rocky-Vingo films that Carmine was a head bigger than Rocky (who was always listed as 5"11) The LaStarza fight was also a big win (my uncles were rooting for LaStarza from NY) but they became Marciano fans and felt Marciano won clearly.

Rex Layne was a big win, and Layne was 34-1 and stopped the man that beat him. He was the favorite and touted as the next Jack Dempsey - Layne was never the same but none of Marciano's foes were after fighting him. Layne was brutally ko'd

Jersey Joe Walcott was hot and cold, but film of that fight shows Walcott was strong and crafty in fight 1, it was a brutal ko in 13

I think another important thing is Marciano fought his # 1 contenders in 5 of 6 fights and never drew the color line.
Marciano fought the best of his time and was 49-0 with 43 ko's - Like Larry David would say - pretty -pretty good.

 

You don't think the fact that Marciano was white was a factor in his development?

 

Marciano was the one that threw the color line out of boxing and is quoted as having said: "I'm gonna fight whoever deserves it, no matter what color he is." He set the standard of fighting the top contenders, regardless of race or age.

Marciano's timeline from debut to heavyweight champion was 5 years and 6 months. To say that Marciano was fast-tracked because of his skin color is a pretty weak, nonsensical claim.

Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore were denied title-shots in the light-heavyweight division, not the heavyweight division, they started in the middleweight division before becoming career light-heavyweights years before they fought at the heavyweight division. They would have had title shots earlier in their career at the light-heavyweight division if not for the color line. Both of them also had their careers put on hold for a while; Ezzard Charles served in the U.S. military during World War II from May 14, 1943 until his release on October 1, 1945. He returned to the ring in March 1946. Archie Moore had stomach surgery in February 1941 and returned to boxing in January 1942.

Jersey Joe Walcott became the oldest heavyweight champion at that point in time after several title-shots. Walcott entered the official top-10 heavyweight rankings for the first time in 1945 at the age of 31, after spending the first 15 years of his professional career unranked.

Comparing their debut to champion timeline with Marciano's timeline makes no sense and ignores all context. Look at some of the other champions:

Joe Louis was the reigning heavyweight champion from 1937 until 1949.
Joe Louis boxed professionally for almost four years - 3 years, 11 months, and 18 days - before becoming the world heavyweight champion on June 22, 1937. He made his professional debut on July 4, 1934, and won the title by knocking out James J. Braddock.

James Braddock made his pro debut on April 13, 1926 and won the world heavyweight championship on June 13, 1935, from Max Baer. Braddock boxed professionally for 9 years and 2 months before becoming champion. Braddock fought professionally at both light-heavyweight and heavyweight, and didn't make a permanent transition into the heavyweight division until much later. Braddock was ranked at the close of 1928 as the number one contender in the light-heavyweight division. On July 18, 1929, a 24-year-old Braddock challenged the reigning World Light-Heavyweight Champion, Tommy Loughran. That is just a little over 3 years. Braddock's entry into the heavyweight rankings began on June 14, 1934.

Max Baer debut on May 16, 1929, and won the title by defeating Primo Carnera by knockout on June 14, 1934. Baer boxed professionally for just over 5 years before becoming the world heavyweight champion.

Primo Carnera made his professional debut on September 12, 1928, and won the NBA and The Ring world heavyweight titles on June 29, 1933, by knocking out Jack Sharkey. Carnera boxed professionally for 4 years and 9 months before becoming the world heavyweight champion.

Max Schmeling debut on August 2, 1924, and won the NBA world heavyweight title on June 12, 1930, when he defeated Jack Sharkey by fourth-round disqualification. Schmelling boxed professionally for nearly 6 years before becoming the world heavyweight champion.

Jack Sharkey debut on January 24, 1924, and won the title by defeating Max Schmeling. Sharkey boxed professionally for about 8 years and 5 months before becoming the world heavyweight champion on June 21, 1932.

Gene Tunney debut July 3, 1915. Tunney boxed professionally for nearly 11 years (or about 7 years after his official postwar restart) before winning the world heavyweight title on September 23, 1926.

Jack Dempsey debut on November 30, 1914, and won the title by knocking out Jess Willard on July 4, 1919. Dempsey boxed professionally for 4 years and 7 months before becoming the world heavyweight champion.

Jess Willard debut on February 15, 1911, and won the heavyweight title on April 5, 1915, by knocking out Jack Johnson. Willard boxed professionally for approximately 4 years and 2 months before becoming the world heavyweight champion.

Jack Johnson debut in November 1897 and boxed professionally for about 11 years before becoming the world heavyweight champion on December 26, 1908 by defeating Tommy Burns.

Tommy Burns debut between 1900-1902, the first match on Boxrec is january 1902, and captured the title by defeating Marvin Hart on February 23, 1906. Burns boxed professionally for 4 years and 1 month before winning the world heavyweight championship.

Marvin Hart boxed debut in late 1899 and boxed professionally for about 5 and a half years before winning the vacant world heavyweight championship on July 3, 1905.

James J. Jeffries debut around 1895 and won the title on June 9, 1899, by knocking out Bob Fitzsimmons. Jeffries boxed professionally for about 3 and a half years before becoming the world heavyweight champion.

Bob Fitzsimmons debut on March 1, 1885, and captured the world middleweight championship by defeating Jack Dempsey on January 14, 1891. Fitzsimmons boxed professionally for about 6 years before winning his first world title. Fitzsimmons became the world heavyweight champion on March 17, 1897, and later became the world light-heavyweight champion on November 25, 1903. Fitzsimmons became heavyweight champion 12 years after his debut, and light-heavyweight champion 18 years and 8 months after his debut. He knocked out James J. Corbett for the heavyweight title on March 17, 1897.

James J. Corbett debut in July 1886 and won the title on September 7, 1892, by knocking out John L. Sullivan. Corbett boxed professionally for about 6 years before becoming the world heavyweight champion.

John L. Sullivan began fighting professionally in 1878 and won the heavyweight championship roughly 3 and a half years later on February 7, 1882, when he knocked out Paddy Ryan.

Math isn't my strong side but lets compare the ones from Joe Louis back to Sullivan. These 16 champions total over ~102.58 years from debut to heavyweight champion, which averages to 6.411. A few of them skew the numbers due to different circumstances, notably Braddock, Sharkey, Tunney, Johnson and Fitzsimmons. If we remove these outliers we get a total of ~50.998 years from debut to champion, which is on average 4.636 years.

Compare the timeline from debut to champion to a few of those who came after Marciano:

Floyd Patterson debut in September 12, 1952 and won the title on November 30, 1956. Patterson boxed professionally for just over 4 years before becoming the world heavyweight champion. Floyd fought as a professional in the light-heavyweight division before going into the heavyweight division. Patterson became the YOUNGEST heavyweight champion at that point in time at the age of 21 when he defeated Archie Moore for the vacant Heavyweight title.

Ingemar Johansson debut on December 5, 1952, and captured the title by defeating Floyd Patterson on June 26, 1959. Johansson boxed professionally for about 6 years and 6 months before winning the world heavyweight championship. Johansson fought as a professional exclusively in the heavyweight division.

Sonny Liston debut in September 1953 and won the title on September 25, 1962, by knocking out Floyd Patterson. Liston boxed professionally for about 9 years before becoming the world heavyweight champion. Liston had a bad reputation and ties to organized crime which did him no favor in getting an early title shot. Liston fought as a professional exclusively in the heavyweight division.

Muhammad Ali debut on October 29, 1960 and became the champion on February 25, 1964, by defeating Sonny Liston. Ali boxed professionally for 3 years and nearly 4 months before winning his first world heavyweight title. Ali fought as a professional exclusively in the heavyweight division.

Jimmy Ellis debut in 1961 and captured the WBA heavyweight title on April 27, 1968, by defeating Jerry Quarry. Ellis boxed professionally for about 7 years before becoming a world champion. Ellis fought as a professional in the middleweight division and light-heavyweight before moving up into the heavyweight division.

Ernie Terrell debut in 1957 and won the WBA heavyweight title on March 5, 1965, in a fight with Eddie Machen after Ali was stripped of his title. Terrell boxed professionally for about 8 years before becoming a world champion. Terrell fought as a professional exclusively in the heavyweight division.

Joe Frazier debut on August 16, 1965, and won the undisputed heavyweight title by knocking out Jimmy Ellis on February 16, 1970. Frazier boxed professionally for about 4 years and 2 months before becoming a world champion. Joe Frazier fought as a professional exclusively in the heavyweight division.

George Foreman debut on June 23, 1969, and knocked out Joe Frazier to capture the championship on January 22, 1973. Foreman boxed professionally for about 3 years and 7 months before winning his first world heavyweight title. Foreman fought as a professional exclusively in the heavyweight division.

These 8 champions have a total of ~45.6 years from debut to champion, which is on average 5.7 years. And this is with Liston skewing the numbers a bit, as he had to wait 2 and a half year to get his title shot. If we remove him it drops to 5.23 on average. If we remove Ellis as well due to him competing at a lower weight classes for years, then it drops to 4.93 years on average.

 

Absolutely not. Popularity? Maybe. Development no. Shot at a title? No. Not sure where you’re going with this? Did his whiteness knock out Louis, Layne, LaStarza, Charles and Moore?

 

Liston's best opponents.
Bethea 204lbs Ranked 8
DeJohn 202lbs Ranked 10
Valdes 211lbsRanked 2
Williams 210 ibs
Williams 215lbs
Folley 198 1/2lbs Ranked1
Machen196lbsRanked 5
Patterson189lbsChamp
Patterson194 1/2lbs Ranked 1
Ali 210 1/2lbs Ranked1
Ali 206 lbs champ
Zech 226lbs
Johnson 2001/2lbs
Clark215lbs
Rischer 200lbs
Lincoln 209 1/2lbs
Martin199 Ranked 7

 

Marciano was an IBC house fighter his manager was the IBC matchmaker and he answered to Norris,Carbo,and Palermo.
Your opinion is in direct contradiction of that held by Marciano's biographers.After he beat Layne ,Rocky was referred to as the ,"next white hope ."

 

Soooo after he was already developed and knocked out the number 1 contender he was a protected white guy run by the mob? Is this what I’m gathering? And his whiteness knocked out just about everyone he met? Are you insinuating mob control of fights?

 

When I was a kid Liston was Heavyweight Champ - I thought he was unbeatable - I was shocked when he lost to Cassius Clay then Ali - Speculation was he took a dive but in retrospect and Ali showing it was not a fluke I believe Liston quit 2 X

I am not impressed by Liston's list - The best fighter above 200 was Ali and Liston was ko'd in 1 by the 206lb Ali. Patterson was frozen 2X much like Micheal Spinks vs Tyson but that was Liston's most impressive wins

the best was Ali

Ali 206lbs KO Liston in 1

Ali 210 tko Liston retired in 6

Floyd Patterson was 6" and under 200 lbs. Liston's 2 best wins
Machen was probably the next best fighter Sonny faced but was sub 200 lbs. and Machen was ko'd in 1 by Ingo Johaneson less than 2 years earlier.

Zora Foley was a name, but he was fragile and was stopped before and after the Sonny including 185lb Doug Jones

George Scrapiron Johnson was 5'9 and was a tough trial horse - Liston stopped Johnson in 7, but Johnson was stopped by Jerry Quarry in 2 prior to Liston and Juergen Blin in 2 rds. after among other before and after.

the rest were ordinary and if size is the reason for the list, most of this list were men that lost to smaller men.

Anyway, probably the best fighter Liston fought after Ali was Leotis Martin and Leotis brutally ko'd the older Sonny


The next best of the bunch by name was an already older and often beaten 211 lb. Nino Valdes (In Valdes 2nd to last fight, who was already stopped by sub 200lb Eddie Machen, dominated and dropped for a 9 count by 5"10 180 lb. Bob Satterfield, beaten by 5"10 176 lb. Harold Johnson. Beaten 2X by Archie Moore who weighed 180 for their 1st fight.

Big Cat Williams 210 1/4 lb. (who was already KO'd and flattened by 5"10 180 Bob Satterfield - Big Cat already had a 35-1-1 record and was dropped 2X in the 3rd the 2nd KD he was out cold.

The biggest man Liston fought was Gerhard Zech who was 6'5 and 226 lbs. and Sonny KO'd Zech in 7 but to gauge the quality of Zech (Zech was ko'd in 2 rounds 8 months earlier by Dave Bailey 14-14-3 - Bailey lost 8 fights prior to the Zech fight, in one KO in 1 losses Baily was stopped by light heavyweight Bob Foster in 1.

Let's not forget Marty Marshall went the distance with Sonny in 3 of 4 fights, beat Sonny in 1 of them and the last fight was in 1956 went 10 rounds and Marty weighed 179 lbs. and was 6" in that fight (Prior to fighting Sonny Marty Marshall was ko'd 2X by Embrell Davidson (Davidson was ko'd in 1 by Archie Moore) Marshall also lost to 174 lb. Harold Johnson in 1954

so, the best biggest men on Sonny list Big Cat and Nino Valdes beaten by 5"10 179 lb. Bob Satterfield and Valdes also lost to 5"10 175lb Harold Johnson.

Marciano fought the most qualified of his era - ATG fighters and on his way up at different levels the best at that level.
Quality of skill and power who beat the Quantity of size and deserving of a title shot despite their skin color or skill set.

Marciano had a short rein compared to Joe Louis but fighting 5 #1 contenders out of 6 was unique.

 

Do you really think the mob cares about color or race or ethnicity - Ask Jake LaMotta (who dropped a fight to Billy Fox (who was black) money comes first for the mob. I come from NY and I know many mobsters and I heard of many fighters controlled by the mob but never heard that Rocky was, in fact Rocky loved money but his name and character would never allow him to take a dive. Rocky had a unique character that with a nose split open by an elbow by Charles was given one rd. to take care of business and he did.

In America especially in the east coast, it took immigrants like the Irish, Italians, Jews, Spanish, Greeks, etc. quite some time to be considered White by the " white people" sometimes they took Anglo names to be able to compete, so this is very far off.

 

No reason to believe he would be a threat today. He would be smaller than anyone in the current top 10 and among the tiniest guys to crack the rankings in the last 10/15 years

It seems a massive stretch to assume he would be champ or even enter the rankings

 

There isn’t a world in which I don’t think a roided out Liston wouldn’t be extremely dangerous. His copy cat prob would have been Ike Ibeabuchi. 230 pound angrier Liston would have been a dangerous man in any era. Great stamina, power, jab. Decent defense. Respectfully disagree

 

I'm stating categorically he was ushered into headline, top of the bill fights because of his connections.
If you don't think the mob ran boxing in the 50s you are seriously naive !