Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

Agree 100%

 

I don't give a **** what those referees say. I saw the fight multiple times and scored it myself. Shavers clearly won.
Most of Ali's punches hit Shavers's guard and did no damage whatsoever. This was a pro bout, not the amateurs where they count tappy taps.

 

He would have to get past guys besides Joshua to be the top guy at heavyweight though so it seems more likely he would choose to be champ at cruiserweight.

It's more likely he would spend most of his time at cruiserweight and then go to heavyweight for a final big money fight

 

Let's have your scorecard WB.

 

I posted it on an older thread about the fight. The poster showed a remastered version of the fight, with better quality footage.. I'll search for it and get back to you.

 

Found it.
This is the thread:
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/earnie-shavers-vs-muhammad-ali-1080p.681800/

And here is my scorecard that I posted on that thread:
Round 1: 10-9 Ali.
Round 2: 10-9 Shavers. You could even make a case for 10:8
Round 3: 10-10, or a slight edge for Shavers winning 10-9
Round 4: 10-9 Shavers
Round 5: 10:9 Ali
Round 6: 10-9 Shavers
Round 7: 10:9 Shavers
Round 8: 10-9 Shavers or 10-10
Round 9: 10:10 or perhaps 10:9 Ali
Round 10: 10:9 Ali
Round 11: 10-10 or 10:9 Ali
Round 12: 10:10
Round 13: 10-9 Shavers
Round 14: 10-9 Shavers or 10:10
Round 15: 10-10

In the most optimistic result for Ali, he won 5 rounds: 1, 5, 9, 10, 11.
In the most optimistic case for Shavers, he won 8 rounds: 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14.
Overall, a clear win for Shavers. He was the aggressor most of the time and he landed the big shots.

I even made a more detailed analysis round by round on that thread if you want to read it.

 

I'll try and have a look on the weekend.

Your card as i see it has Ali winning 3 rounds, Shavers 7, and 5 even.

 

If he clears up cruiserweight he'd move up to heavyweight after a few years. He wouldn't stay there. It's almost as if you think he ducked bigger guy in real life which is unsupported

 

Yeah, sure, but there are other 6'1" fighters with power who are not going to conquer today's heavyweight division. Because there are much bigger guys with power.

 

Its almost impossible to say because we didn't see Liston vs bigger heavyweights. Just like we never saw Holmes vs southpaws. So hypotheticals are always hard.

One thing that distinguishes Liston from other 6'1 guys is his reach. The 84 inches might be overstated but he had unusually long arms. I would bet minimum his reach would be 81-82 inches whereas most guys who are 6'1 would be in the 75-77 inch region. At that elite level, even a few inches makes a massive difference. So unlike some shorter heavyweights who may struggle due to short arms, Liston's unusually long arms combined with strong boxing fundementals and outstanding power, i am pretty sure he would do well.

I honestly don't see who would beat him today. Take a guy like Agit Kabayel for example. Kabayel isn't fast, is open to uppercuts. I think Liston hits harder despite being 20-23 lbs lighter. Kabayel would have to fight him on the front foot and unlike Zhang, Liston isn't going to slow down.

It took the fastest heavyweight in history to expose some of Liston's limitations. I honestly don't see anyone in the top 10 today being a favourite over Liston. Maybe a younger Usyk but that ship has sailed. Was he unbeatable? No, of course not. But i don't think anyone in the top 10 today would be a firm favourite over him.

 

If they did no damage why didn’t Shavers simply bore into Ali when Earnie clearly hurt Muhammad in round 2?

Earnie qualified himself on that question when he said that he thought that Ali might’ve been feigning hurt to set a trap.

As already mentioned, Ali had Earnie nearly gone in the final round and the primary cause of same wasn’t fatigue.

Shavers was exceptionally well paced for that fight, he was simply getting hit and it caused him to flounder.

That’s not to say that some shots weren’t being caught on Shavers’ gloves but it wasn’t as if nothing was getting through.

 

It's not the same thing. Athletes have gotten bigger and stronger over time, and that is a real advantage. In any other sport, this is not a controversy.

I am sure he would do well starting at cruiser and working his way up to heavy, but he would not a dominant figure. He woudl be part of the pack.

 

I’m in agreement regarding Liston and to a lesser extent Louis.

Out of curiosity’s sake, who are those older fighters you believe to be overrated based on film?

 

Putting me on the spot? I didn’t see that coming. Lol, kidding.

Off the top I would say Ketchel for one.

Another would be Max Baer.

While he was never described as a boxing master in print and I didn’t realise how raw and primitive his game was until I saw more of him on film.

I would perhaps say Johnson also - more popular descriptions had his defence mainly comprised by plucking punches out of the air.

Of course the films reveal the reality of how much he clinched, preventing his opponents from even getting a punch off in the first place.

I still accept that Johnson had the reflexes to pick punches off - but more often than not he took the much easier option of clamping down on his opponents with a vice like grip.

It’s a bit speculative, but based on the literature also, I don’t believe that the available films and quality of opposition therein allowed us to see all that Johnson was truly capable of if demanded of him.

Just on Liston, some people seem to forget that Sonny himself fought at some lower weights during his career.

For example some might say well Wayne Bethea only weighed 204 lbs - but that is exactly what Sonny weighed himself when he destroyed Bethea inside of one round.

The way Liston cleaned up Bethea, he could’ve just as easily have been compared to/on par with a 6’3”, 220 lbs power puncher…at the least.

Bethea was never stopped before or after and I believe it was the first time he was ever put down or at least 1 of only 2 times he hit the deck during his whole career.

Not exactly Sonny’s best opponent but still a highly impressive, efficient destruction of an otherwise very durable fighter nonetheless.

 

Larry tried to unify several times.

It was also a different landscape back then. Obtaining all of the titles wasn't the same as it is today.


You need to apply context here.

Just like in reference to his statement that you posted.


That was towards the end of his reign, after fighting 3-4 times per year for around 7 years.

It was an honest statement. And if you look at it in its entirety, he also said it's because he'd already paid his dues, as in - he'd pretty much fought everyone relevant at that stage.

They were only a couple of omissions such as Page, and Page had lost to guys who Larry had beaten.


You've then got to acknowledge, that after his reign, he went on to fight prime versions of Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and Ray Mercer when in his late 30's to early 40's.

It was certainly not the actions of a guy who shirked a challenge.