Does Usyk's last performance affects his ranking on an ATG heavyweights list?

if todays best hw contenders turn out to be at the level of what the bottom of a top 10 in any other era would be, it affects his standing.

 

I will say, save for when he plateaued over the 2 AJ fights at 221 lbs or so, Usyk has been incrementally adding more and more weight to his frame for each and every next fight.

That type of weight gain without ceiling had to bite him on the (more ample?) ass at some point.

From Dubois 2 to Verhoeven, as if he hadn’t already hit his practical limit, Olek increased his weight by another 6 lbs - to date, his greatest increase from one fight to another at HW, placing him some 18 lbs north of his original entry weight of 215 lbs for the HW division.

215 lbs more or less reflected Usyks highest recorded fight night weight as a CW.

There had to be a limit to how much more bulk/weight he could put on thereafter whilst still maintaining a net advantage and remaining acceptably viable.

Ironically, for the Verhoeven fight, Usyk basically came in at the weight Buffer misread him to be for the first Fury fight.

Many people freaked when Buffer misread him to be about 233 1/2 lbs for Fury 1 - but to be fair, as at that time, it would’ve represented a whopping 12 lbs or so gain since Usyk’s last fight.

Still, all in all, 233 1/2 lbs was too heavy - even 227 lbs was perhaps stretching the friendship.

Aside from all possible whys and wherefores (viz: age related decline, poor prep and focus, coming in too heavy etc. or a combination of those things) Usyk was definitely slower and showed far less vitality than in his last outing against Dubois.

Also, in his last fight against Dubois we didn’t get to see how well Usyk might’ve gone over the longer haul if he had to.

At 227 lbs an even more planted Usyk was clearly looking to take Daniel out in quick time which he obviously succeeded in doing.

Also, it wasn’t as if Dubois didn’t land some hard shots himself but of course Usyk also has the safety net of that terrific chin of his.

While not drastically so, Usyk has been declining over several years. He’s compensated for same with some extra weight and related added pop. He certainly isn’t as mobile as he used to be.

He has kind of custom built himself to be a killer of slower, stamina challenged giants.

Fighting a guy like Verhoeven who wasn’t so necessarily impaired - particularly in the gas tank dept. is something that Usyk hasn’t had to deal with for quite some time - perhaps even not since his CW days.

 

Dubois is better than aj. After Dubois became 2x champ against Wardley their legacy is about the same

 

The third best LHW is a LHW. No sitting LHW champ had ever come up to beat the heavyweight champ. It was at the time shocking. I posted a bunch of quotes in one of these threads/posts that took me all of 20 minutes to find. A lot of people on here are re-writing history because of their love of Holmes, but history is history.

Here they are:

“I want a lot of money and no more of those big hitters like Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver,” he told Pat Putnam of Sports Illustrated. “I’ve paid my dues and if they want me back, they’ve got to give me little people I can beat on without getting hurt.”

From Spinks:
''He told me his jab would feel like a light heavyweight's right hand but it felt like a lightweight's right,'' Spinks said. ''It was nothing. Ali had told me to stay away from Larry for six rounds because his legs couldn't take it after that. But I didn't see how I could run. I intimidated him by standing there and giving him head movement.''

Even Spinks didn't believe it was possible:
''I never had a feeling I'd win,'' he said. ''But I decided to do my best and let the better man win. And believe it or not, the better man won.''

From an article after the win:
https://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/23/sports/spinks-is-giddy-with-success.html
Spinks survived. Now, he has fought his way to the heavyweight championship that the boxing experts gave him virtually no chance to win.

From a 1985 article:
https://www.thefightcity.com/sept-21-1985-holmes-vs-spinks-boxing/
After all, no light heavyweight world champion had ever succeeded in taking the heavyweight title. Such legendary Hall of Fame pugilists as Billy Conn, Archie Moore and Bob Foster had all tried and all had failed, and no one was yet talking about Spinks in the same breath as those former greats of the 175 pound division. Moore himself compared Holmes vs Spinks to a smash ’em up derby between a transport truck and a Volkswagen.

From New York Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/21/sports/spinks-at-200-for-title-fight.html
During the week, Spinks managed to create more suspense over the weigh-in than there was about the outcome of his fight against Holmes Saturday night for the International Boxing Federation heavyweight championship. Spinks is attempting to become the first light heavyweight champion to win the heavyweight title and his chances were considered the same as his nickname - ''Slim.'' That still may be true, although no one will be calling Spinks slim any more.

https://boxing-social.com/features/michael-spinks-my-two-fights-with-larry-holmes/
Virtually everyone outside of Spinks’ inner circle had written him off. With Holmes chasing history-making records, Spinks had history against him. But Spinks had moulded his physique into a viable heavyweight contender. Veteran trainer Eddie Futch had connections to both fighters, Futch stayed neutral and at home.

 

I did a poll. It is official pretty much. Many argue bitterly that he is third over Joshua. I'll let you find it yourself because I seem to have a whole bunch of fanboys who are angry with me for reminding them of the truth.

POSt SCRIPT:

Here it is:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...-years-as-they-would-appear-right-now.751015/

 

I think that is a matter of interpretation. Rico is a big man, Usyk is a little man fighting big men.

You hit it in the head yourself--he's fighting one fight a year. That is when a fighter gets old...when they become inactive.

 

But again, none of those tough fights are the same a losing to a LHW, which had never happened before in roughly 100 years of Queensbury rules. I was shocking at the time, causing Holmes himself to completely melt down.

Usyk also had some previous decline. People are bigging the second Dubois fight up, apparently forgetting that the first was much the same. Dubois is a flawed fighter, and Usyk knows how to exploit those flaws.

 

The narrative that it was just a "poor fight" is very shaky. A poor fight was Holyfield against Vaughn Bean, or Wladimir facing Jennings; the fight with Rico wasn't just poor—it was *very, very* poor. It was an embarrassing performance from someone regarded as the epitome of professionalism who was still at the top of his game at 39.
Rico isn't a boxer; he comes from a different discipline. He’s never fought more than six rounds, yet I hear people say he might have posed a problem for Usyk simply because the Dubois fight was too short.
I hear talk that Rico was too big and too athletic—hell, does that mean kickboxers are bigger and more athletic than Dubois, AJ, or Fury? It’s frightening to think what would happen if they started switching to boxing; they’d steamroll the entire heavyweight division...
The very idea of a 37-year-old kickboxer—who fought a single two-minute boxing match against some bum years ago—fighting for the heavyweight title is absurd. The fact that he’s going up against the best heavyweight boxer in years is an embarrassment for the champion and for boxing as a whole. If, thirty years from now, people discuss boxing eras, the Usyk era will be associated with Rico and Ngannou.
Back in 1994, people said the heavyweight division was in crisis because a light heavyweight had become champion—only to be beaten by 45-year-old Foreman, who then chose Schulz for his first title defense. That choice and defensive style sparked huge controversy, and as a result, George lost his belts—but just imagine if, in his next fight, "Big George" had chosen Hulk Hogan instead of the mandatory challenger Tucker and had to rely on the referee's help to beat him...
We are too lenient.

 

Yet nowhere near as shocking as the undisputed HW champ getting outboxed by a rookie kickboxer for 11 rounds.

 

I was in the RBR thread when Usyk/Dubois 2 happened.

Everyone in that thread including myself was hyping up Usyk's performance as one of his best at Heavyweight.

Usyk had never really had an early stoppage against a notable opponent and he totally dominated Dubois in a more aggressive performance than we were used to seeing.

It was a stand out performance from Usyk from what many people perceived as an improved Dubois, and it gave no indication that Usyk would be poor and sluggish vs Rico.

And of course it isn't the same ?

Spinks is a top 50 fighter of all time and a top 5 Light Heavyweight of all time.

How are you comparing that to struggling against a kickboxer ? That's baffling.

Just be honest Usyk came in too heavy underestimated Rico and almost paid the price for taking a gimmicky fight.

I still rate Usyk as a great fighter but come on struggling against Spinks is not the same as struggling against Rico.

And despite Usyk being older than Holmes that doesn't tell the whole story.

Holmes had 20 world title fights in 7 years where as Usyk as I keep mentioning has been averaging 1 fight per year for past 6 years.

So Usyk hasn't been anywhere close to as active as Holmes was and Holmes's decline since Witherspoon fight was quite evident.

Whilst Usyk isn't at his peak he was coming off one of his best performances of his career vs Dubois and there was no evidence he would be so poor vs Rico.

 

Yes but this era isn't over yet though you can't proclaim an era when the fighters in that era are still active.

You have to wait until they retire and the dust settles and see the outcome of future fights.

 

And fighters being constantly active in tough fights also ages you significantly ?

Rico has had a considerably tougher professional career than Usyk in regards to being active and the punishment he's taken.

If you're claiming Usyk isn't at his peak then that applies to Rico aswell he's as old as Usyk and has alot of wear and tear.

 

A great example of styles making fights because Usyk had harder nights with AJ, yet was relatively comfortable v Dubois. I think Dubois is better than AJ...

 

Lol if you think this means anything. Dubois wasn't ranked for the first fight and #2 for the rematch. And he was only #2 because everyone else had just lost.

 

No sitting light heavyweight champ, but he wasn't the first light heavyweight to win the belt, fight for the belt, or beat a heavyweight champion. Tunney and Charles both won the title before him, guys like Lewis, Loughran, Moore and Johnson had massive success at heavyweight even if they didn't beat the champion. It isn't some unique achievement which could never be done - it was simply the first time the cards had fallen that way.

Spinks being smaller than Holmes hardly makes it embarrassing. Nor does the fact he was perceived by writers as a huge underdog. Spinks should have been treated as a massive threat because he was - and the fact he did it twice only proves it.