Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

Dang JT, you remember all this? I'm an Agassi fan myself. And of course Johnny Mack the Super Brat, but I digress...

 

I had to recheck some TBH but i was a tennis tragic. Played heaps and watched heaps.

 

Okay. Note to self: Do not ever challenge one John Thomas’ opinions re anything tennis unless you’re looking for a butt kicking.

 

Yeah, whatever an older fighter might have left in sheer physical potential, if he’s signed off mentally, he’s as good as done.

When a fighter achieves his most important, nominated goals (and after receiving the $$$ that goes among with same) it’s that much harder to get properly motivated.

I think it was post Fury 2 (or was it Fury 1) when Usyk began to become that much more vocal about the drudge and drain from training himself to the best possible condition over many years.

 

The winner of Joshua v Fury will then be the third best heavyweight in the UK,small potatoes.

 

Holmes said he had a torn left bicep going in to the Norton fight.

 

You know I've been watching some old Tennis matches recently I've started to really get into Tennis when Andy Murray starting winning.

There was some newer generation of players that started to give Sampras alot of problems.

Safin beat him in a US Open final.

Hewitt thrashed him also in a US Open final and seemed to have his number, to be fair Hewitt seemed to thrive against serve and volley players.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they starting to slow the courts down ? And serve and volleying was starting to no longer be the dominant playstyle anymore ?

I think 1999 was the last time Sampras was in his prime when he destroyed Agassi in straight sets in Wimbledon final.

I know Sampras did win another Wimbledon in 2000 against Rafter. But Sampras was a bit lucky in that match he was set down and probably should've been 2 sets down, but Rafter kind of choked in the tie breaker after being 4-2 up.

There was also a rain delay that probably halted Rafter's momentum aswell.

But yeah by 2002 Sampras was considered washed up and was dropping down the rankings. The US Open win in 2002 was a bit of a surprise really.

It was different times back then Tennis players were considered past it in their late 20s or early 30s.

The big 3 sort of changed that narrative but there's better training and nutrition now aswell I'd gather.

 

Simple: my favorite fighter suddenly is out of his prime when he loses. Same with Mike Tyson.

 

And to think that people talk about circular reasoning as if it’s a bad thing.

Circles just so happen to be the most perfect and efficient shape.

 

Lol! He was 25! How could anyone think this?

 

It’s very interesting how we see things from different perspectives.


Yes, everyone knows that Liston was past his best.

But Ali was only young, and many people had Liston as the favourite.


You say that Ali was fresh, but he was robbed of his best years. In 1967, he looked the full package.

He and Frazier would probably have met earlier, and it could have been brilliant. They could even have rematched earlier.


Foreman didn’t go many rounds, because he just blasted world level guys like Frazier and Norton away, like they were nothing.

Again, people feared for Ali’s health, after he’d clearly slipped and they’d seen how destructive Foreman was.

That win over Foreman is one of the greatest wins in history.

Yes, George cracked, because Ali cracked him.

He did a complete psyche job on him.


Yes, Holmes was probably the best fighter he ever fought. But again, it should never have been sanctioned.


I just don’t know where you get the idea that Ali was fortunate in his career.

Again, he was robbed of his prime, and he fought Norton x 3, Frazier x3 and Foreman, all when past his best.

He was too brave.

He took fights that he should never have taken.

Even Angelo Dundee couldn’t persuade him to retire earlier.

 

Ali was well ahead on the cards in Manila when the fight was stopped:

• Referee: Carlos Padilla 66-60
• Judge: Larry Nadayag 66-62
• Judge: Alfredo Quiazon 67-62

And Carlos Padilla said if Eddie Futch didn't stop the fight he would:

Padilla said that even if Futch hadn’t told him to do so, he probably would have called the fight. “Because Frazier was no more.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/10/ali-frazier-thrilla-in-manila-history/683972/


Great read. It should be it's own thread​

 

But you know that the "Rope-a-Dope" wasn't exactly a standard, legal tactic—and such loose ropes would never have been sanctioned in an American ring. You’re surely also aware that Foreman still lacked experience and the strategy he adopted was terrible; he wasted a huge number of punches. Another factor was the pressure from the crowd—not from Ali, but the crowd. George himself recounted how he shut himself in his hotel room, just wanting it all to be over.

If Ali hadn't had that hiatus, who would he have beaten in '68 and '69?

I believe the stars aligned perfectly for him. And the nostalgia exists because he was adored by both journalists and fans.

 

Thank G-d for the internet:

The Ring Size:

Much has been made about the loose ring ropes for the Foreman-Ali bout over the years. And yes they did have slightly more give than the ropes usually have around a boxing ring. And the reason for that was because the ropes were for a 19-foot ring. Before the fight Ali stressed he wanted a 20-foot ring and Foreman wanted a 19-foot ring. What they got in Zaire was a 16-foot ring. This is documented by the October 29, 1974 edition of the Milwaukee Sentinel, and countless interviews that referee Zack Clayton gave over the years after the fight. In fact this was discussed between me and Mr. Clayton when I mentioned it to him at the post fight press conference after Michael Spinks stopped Murray Sutherland in the eighth round on 4-11-82 to retain his WBA light heavyweight title in Atlantic City N.J. And Mr. Clayton confirmed to me that Foreman and Ali fought in a 16 foot ring in over 80 degree heat. He then added that he was somewhat surprised that,

This content is protected

The size of the ring was a definite benefit for Foreman because he knew the less room that Ali had to move and box the larger the advantage for him. The conventional wisdom before the fight was this: Ali would look to circle and box George from the outside, utilizing his superior hand and foot speed the way he did when he fought Sonny Liston and George Chuvalo the first time he fought them. Ali also circled and boxed and used the entire ring 20-foot ring for seven or eight rounds of his rematch with Joe Frazier in his last bout before challenging Foreman. As witnessed by re-watching the fight, Foreman easily crowds Ali after taking only three or four steps to either side in the smaller ring. One of the things Foreman worked on and stressed before the fight was his ability to cut the ring off and how that would force Ali to have to mix it up and trade punches with him. That was considered ring suicide against Foreman circa 1973-74.

This content is protected

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/three-myth...ary-of-foreman-vs-ali/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

The ropes weren’t loosened.


Yes, Foreman lacked experience. But he’d taken out 2 world level fighters like they were nothing.

The strategy was bad with hindsight.

But at the time, he’d destroyed 2 great fighters, one of whom, had already beaten Ali.

Because of this, he thought that he’d take Ali out within 2-3 rounds. And many other respected people also shared that opinion.

You also need to give Ali huge credit for forcing George into those actions.

He baited him.

Psyched him out.


If he’d not been banned, he’d probably have fought Joe earlier.


Now if he fought prime versions of Joe, Norton and Foreman, and whilst being past his own absolute prime, then how could the stars have aligned for him?


He had to take huge shots from a young killer, after baiting him, and after seeing him destroy a guy who he’d struggled with.


He also fought a prime Holmes with absolutely nothing left in the tank.


Thinking that he somehow had all of these advantages, is crazy.