Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

Lol! He was 25! How could anyone think this?

 

It’s very interesting how we see things from different perspectives.


Yes, everyone knows that Liston was past his best.

But Ali was only young, and many people had Liston as the favourite.


You say that Ali was fresh, but he was robbed of his best years. In 1967, he looked the full package.

He and Frazier would probably have met earlier, and it could have been brilliant. They could even have rematched earlier.


Foreman didn’t go many rounds, because he just blasted world level guys like Frazier and Norton away, like they were nothing.

Again, people feared for Ali’s health, after he’d clearly slipped and they’d seen how destructive Foreman was.

That win over Foreman is one of the greatest wins in history.

Yes, George cracked, because Ali cracked him.

He did a complete psyche job on him.


Yes, Holmes was probably the best fighter he ever fought. But again, it should never have been sanctioned.


I just don’t know where you get the idea that Ali was fortunate in his career.

Again, he was robbed of his prime, and he fought Norton x 3, Frazier x3 and Foreman, all when past his best.

He was too brave.

He took fights that he should never have taken.

Even Angelo Dundee couldn’t persuade him to retire earlier.

 

Ali was well ahead on the cards in Manila when the fight was stopped:

• Referee: Carlos Padilla 66-60
• Judge: Larry Nadayag 66-62
• Judge: Alfredo Quiazon 67-62

And Carlos Padilla said if Eddie Futch didn't stop the fight he would:

Padilla said that even if Futch hadn’t told him to do so, he probably would have called the fight. “Because Frazier was no more.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/10/ali-frazier-thrilla-in-manila-history/683972/


Great read. It should be it's own thread​

 

But you know that the "Rope-a-Dope" wasn't exactly a standard, legal tactic—and such loose ropes would never have been sanctioned in an American ring. You’re surely also aware that Foreman still lacked experience and the strategy he adopted was terrible; he wasted a huge number of punches. Another factor was the pressure from the crowd—not from Ali, but the crowd. George himself recounted how he shut himself in his hotel room, just wanting it all to be over.

If Ali hadn't had that hiatus, who would he have beaten in '68 and '69?

I believe the stars aligned perfectly for him. And the nostalgia exists because he was adored by both journalists and fans.

 

Thank G-d for the internet:

The Ring Size:

Much has been made about the loose ring ropes for the Foreman-Ali bout over the years. And yes they did have slightly more give than the ropes usually have around a boxing ring. And the reason for that was because the ropes were for a 19-foot ring. Before the fight Ali stressed he wanted a 20-foot ring and Foreman wanted a 19-foot ring. What they got in Zaire was a 16-foot ring. This is documented by the October 29, 1974 edition of the Milwaukee Sentinel, and countless interviews that referee Zack Clayton gave over the years after the fight. In fact this was discussed between me and Mr. Clayton when I mentioned it to him at the post fight press conference after Michael Spinks stopped Murray Sutherland in the eighth round on 4-11-82 to retain his WBA light heavyweight title in Atlantic City N.J. And Mr. Clayton confirmed to me that Foreman and Ali fought in a 16 foot ring in over 80 degree heat. He then added that he was somewhat surprised that,

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The size of the ring was a definite benefit for Foreman because he knew the less room that Ali had to move and box the larger the advantage for him. The conventional wisdom before the fight was this: Ali would look to circle and box George from the outside, utilizing his superior hand and foot speed the way he did when he fought Sonny Liston and George Chuvalo the first time he fought them. Ali also circled and boxed and used the entire ring 20-foot ring for seven or eight rounds of his rematch with Joe Frazier in his last bout before challenging Foreman. As witnessed by re-watching the fight, Foreman easily crowds Ali after taking only three or four steps to either side in the smaller ring. One of the things Foreman worked on and stressed before the fight was his ability to cut the ring off and how that would force Ali to have to mix it up and trade punches with him. That was considered ring suicide against Foreman circa 1973-74.

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https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/three-myth...ary-of-foreman-vs-ali/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

The ropes weren’t loosened.


Yes, Foreman lacked experience. But he’d taken out 2 world level fighters like they were nothing.

The strategy was bad with hindsight.

But at the time, he’d destroyed 2 great fighters, one of whom, had already beaten Ali.

Because of this, he thought that he’d take Ali out within 2-3 rounds. And many other respected people also shared that opinion.

You also need to give Ali huge credit for forcing George into those actions.

He baited him.

Psyched him out.


If he’d not been banned, he’d probably have fought Joe earlier.


Now if he fought prime versions of Joe, Norton and Foreman, and whilst being past his own absolute prime, then how could the stars have aligned for him?


He had to take huge shots from a young killer, after baiting him, and after seeing him destroy a guy who he’d struggled with.


He also fought a prime Holmes with absolutely nothing left in the tank.


Thinking that he somehow had all of these advantages, is crazy.

 

Umm, we literally had Mike Tyson at 58 years old, sanctioned to flight Jake Paul.

Tyson had been recently hospitalized for internal bleeding from an ulcer for which he needed eight blood transfusions — losing 25 pounds and half his blood — as well as sciatica that causes him to use a wheelchair or a cane just to walk.

He’s about to be sanctioned again to fight Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Wtf makes you think Ali wouldn’t be sanctioned for Holmes by today’s regulators? Money talks. They don’t give a **** about the health and well-being of fighters, and the truth is neither do guys like Ali and Tyson when they want to make a money grab.

 

Yes, money talks.


I’m a huge fan of Bob Dylan.

In one of his great songs, he wrote the lyrics:

“Money doesn’t talk, it SWEARS”


So, yes, we know how the world works.

The greed and the corruption etc.


However, I don’t believe that Ali-Holmes would have gone ahead today.

Not with the various scans and testing for world level fights.


I appreciate what you’re saying, but at least the circus with Jake and Mike was an exhibition.

It was an exhibition, with large gloves and 2 minute rounds.

Eight rounds.

That was a scheduled 16 minute exhibition.

Jake isn’t a world level boxer.


The Ali-Holmes fight, was a world title fight, scheduled for 15 rounds.


A world of difference between the two, and especially as Ali’s speech was already slurred, and Holmes was an ATG in the prime of his life.


The Jake-Mike fight was an outrageous money grab.

The Ali-Holmes fight was just flat out outrageous on every level.

 

His best win out of the bunch was 194 pounds. I would say his 2nd best win was 196 pounds. Valdes was beaten by Moore, Satterfield and Harold Johnson and somehow people seem to only rate Valdes when he's spoken of as a Liston opponent. I'd wager to say if he fought Marciano and lost (which he would, let's be serious) he would be reduced to a big oaf who was never that good and lost to light heavyweights. In my opinion, he was a solid contender and not just because he was a Liston opponent.

The rest were decent, but as much flack as Buddy Baer and Max Baer and King Levinsky and Rex Layne get, were the rest really better H2H than those guys? I mean, if Cleveland Williams were around 20 years earlier, he would be rated the same as Elmer Ray, Curtis Shepherd, Lem Franklin, a big man who could punch hard and was dangerous if he could hit you. If Williams got a title shot against Louis, he would be a Buddy Baer type figure. A big puncher (who may or may not have dropped Louis) but was ultimately decimated and dismantled by Louis instead of the mythic status he enjoys today.

 

The difference was Holmes was a reigning prime heavyweight champion, not a YouTube boxer. And Tyson vs Mayweather would in many ways be akin to Ali digging up Joey Giardello out of retirement and having an exhibition with him in 1982. If Paul was a reigning, dominant cruiserweight or heavyweight champion and he was put up against Tyson as a title defense that would be like Ali vs Holmes

 

I agree it doesn't hurt either too much. But Ali getting some those decisions does look better on his resume.

And I suppose anyway most people have him losing to Young and Norton 3 and it still doesn't effect there ranking.

 

I rate Patterson as an excellent fighter, one of the best between 175-200 pounds to lace up gloves. But one can't knock other fighters for having their best wins comprised of sub 200 pound fighters and not hold Liston to the same standard. Machen and Folley were good world class contenders, but much of their reputations are built on being Liston opponents. If they came around 10-20 years earlier and lost to Louis or Ezzard Charles, they would be looked at as very good contenders, but they honestly weren't better than Jimmy Bivins or Joey Maxim. Machen vs Bivins, who wins? Folley vs Maxim, who wins? One can argue around the margins on who takes the win, but it's unreasonable to say Machen just destroys and outclasses Bivins or Folley annihilates Maxim. They are all around the same class of heavyweight

 

When someone loses half their blood, needs eight transfusions and has to use a wheelchair to get across a room, he shouldn’t be licensed to fight your grandmother.

He literally almost died a few months before WITHOUT boxing … so ‘it’s only Jake Paul’ has nothing to do with it.

The commission would have OK’d Mike to fight a great white shark in an 18-foot pool while looked to a dozen IVs and an anchor around his legs if the promoters made it worth their while. Do not be naive.

 

people who have stated Ali still haven't been able to explain which other heavyweight has a better win resume or quality of wins than Ali.

Hint: none of them.

 

Yeah but it's still not the same type of opponent in a championship fight.