Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

Umm, we literally had Mike Tyson at 58 years old, sanctioned to flight Jake Paul.

Tyson had been recently hospitalized for internal bleeding from an ulcer for which he needed eight blood transfusions — losing 25 pounds and half his blood — as well as sciatica that causes him to use a wheelchair or a cane just to walk.

He’s about to be sanctioned again to fight Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Wtf makes you think Ali wouldn’t be sanctioned for Holmes by today’s regulators? Money talks. They don’t give a **** about the health and well-being of fighters, and the truth is neither do guys like Ali and Tyson when they want to make a money grab.

 

Yes, money talks.


I’m a huge fan of Bob Dylan.

In one of his great songs, he wrote the lyrics:

“Money doesn’t talk, it SWEARS”


So, yes, we know how the world works.

The greed and the corruption etc.


However, I don’t believe that Ali-Holmes would have gone ahead today.

Not with the various scans and testing for world level fights.


I appreciate what you’re saying, but at least the circus with Jake and Mike was an exhibition.

It was an exhibition, with large gloves and 2 minute rounds.

Eight rounds.

That was a scheduled 16 minute exhibition.

Jake isn’t a world level boxer.


The Ali-Holmes fight, was a world title fight, scheduled for 15 rounds.


A world of difference between the two, and especially as Ali’s speech was already slurred, and Holmes was an ATG in the prime of his life.


The Jake-Mike fight was an outrageous money grab.

The Ali-Holmes fight was just flat out outrageous on every level.

 

His best win out of the bunch was 194 pounds. I would say his 2nd best win was 196 pounds. Valdes was beaten by Moore, Satterfield and Harold Johnson and somehow people seem to only rate Valdes when he's spoken of as a Liston opponent. I'd wager to say if he fought Marciano and lost (which he would, let's be serious) he would be reduced to a big oaf who was never that good and lost to light heavyweights. In my opinion, he was a solid contender and not just because he was a Liston opponent.

The rest were decent, but as much flack as Buddy Baer and Max Baer and King Levinsky and Rex Layne get, were the rest really better H2H than those guys? I mean, if Cleveland Williams were around 20 years earlier, he would be rated the same as Elmer Ray, Curtis Shepherd, Lem Franklin, a big man who could punch hard and was dangerous if he could hit you. If Williams got a title shot against Louis, he would be a Buddy Baer type figure. A big puncher (who may or may not have dropped Louis) but was ultimately decimated and dismantled by Louis instead of the mythic status he enjoys today.

 

The difference was Holmes was a reigning prime heavyweight champion, not a YouTube boxer. And Tyson vs Mayweather would in many ways be akin to Ali digging up Joey Giardello out of retirement and having an exhibition with him in 1982. If Paul was a reigning, dominant cruiserweight or heavyweight champion and he was put up against Tyson as a title defense that would be like Ali vs Holmes

 

I agree it doesn't hurt either too much. But Ali getting some those decisions does look better on his resume.

And I suppose anyway most people have him losing to Young and Norton 3 and it still doesn't effect there ranking.

 

I rate Patterson as an excellent fighter, one of the best between 175-200 pounds to lace up gloves. But one can't knock other fighters for having their best wins comprised of sub 200 pound fighters and not hold Liston to the same standard. Machen and Folley were good world class contenders, but much of their reputations are built on being Liston opponents. If they came around 10-20 years earlier and lost to Louis or Ezzard Charles, they would be looked at as very good contenders, but they honestly weren't better than Jimmy Bivins or Joey Maxim. Machen vs Bivins, who wins? Folley vs Maxim, who wins? One can argue around the margins on who takes the win, but it's unreasonable to say Machen just destroys and outclasses Bivins or Folley annihilates Maxim. They are all around the same class of heavyweight

 

When someone loses half their blood, needs eight transfusions and has to use a wheelchair to get across a room, he shouldn’t be licensed to fight your grandmother.

He literally almost died a few months before WITHOUT boxing … so ‘it’s only Jake Paul’ has nothing to do with it.

The commission would have OK’d Mike to fight a great white shark in an 18-foot pool while looked to a dozen IVs and an anchor around his legs if the promoters made it worth their while. Do not be naive.

 

people who have stated Ali still haven't been able to explain which other heavyweight has a better win resume or quality of wins than Ali.

Hint: none of them.

 

Yeah but it's still not the same type of opponent in a championship fight.

 

Nice, you are correct on all fronts. Safin, Hewitt and others were coming thru but it co-incided with a solid drop in form from Pete.

You are bang on about the Rafter match, choking, rain etc.

I believe it was the Wimbledon grass that was the big chance in court speeds. Around the same time it started to wear better as well which brought playing from the baseline to the forefront, which was a huge shame IMO. The bad bounces and speed of court made it virtually impossible to win the tourney from the back. Even Borg made his fair share of forays into the net. Lendl played serve and volley off both serves in his later years. I wish it stayed the same so we might see a bit more net play today. It pretty much died with Sampras, tho Goran won it the year after Pete's last title there.

 

A state commission’s medical standards are the same for a 4-round preliminary fighter as for a world champion. It’s health and safety. They do not have a sliding scale based on your opponent.

“Sure he lost half his blood and needed eight transfusions a couple months ago, but no biggie, he’s not fighting prime Joe Louis” isn’t how it works.

They know damned well Mike Tyson shouldn’t be in a ring, but everybody (including Mike) is making coin so they don’t care. The idea that today’s medical standards wouldn’t allow Ali of Holmes to fight but actually did allow Tyson of Paul to fight makes no sense. They did.

 

Yes, Ali’s ability to adapt shouldn’t be confused with Muhammad having been availed of fortuitous conditions.

Ali’s ability to adapt should in fact be applauded.

The canvas was also soft and therefore “slow” in Zaire - possibly in part due to the preceding heavy downpour. At any rate, just another factor that certainly was not in Ali’s favour.

I don’t know that leaning on the ropes is illegal per se and, over the years, the time that Ali did spend on the ropes has been somewhat exaggerated, just imo.

Both on and off the ropes Ali was landing some pretty savage shots on George.

Foreman might’ve drained his own tank somewhat in his efforts to KO Ali, but Muhammad was doing his own share of syphoning that tank with the punishment he was meting out.

 

If you say so. To me it was self explanatory.

I agree with you that Shavers did not know how hurt Ali was, but I think he was afraid to go all out.

Agreed, but if Shavers actually believed what he said, it might explain his actions.

Ali was not a big puncher, but his punches could still do damage nonetheless, especially if they came in combos. Perhaps Shavers was afraid he was gonna get caught with too many.

Good question. That is hard to say exactly. For me, he'd probably need at least 4 or 5.

I agree.

 

Your reaction says otherwise.

For the millionth time, they were good/decent rounds in your view, not in mine.

There's no agenda.

It is objective, it's simply my assessment of the fight, whether you like it or not.

Actually I did.

I've conjured up nothing, it's just how I scored it.

Mate, give it up already, you sound like a broken record. For the billionth time, you saw them as decent, I don't have to have the same view.

Actually it is.

It doesn't have to be "hotly debated", as you say. I simply think neither did enough to edge it. Given those circumstances, I can more than score a round even.

And your point is ?!?
Again, it's me whos's scoring, it's my assessment. It's not like I'm obligated it to score certain rounds for Ali.

Shavers won the first 3 quarters of that round, Ali won the last 30 seconds. Shavers was the aggressor for most of the round and pressing Ali. I also disagree with your assessment that he almost KO'd Shavers, IMO there was little chance of that happening. They were both exhausted and their punches had little power behind them at that point.
Given those circumstances, Ali certainly did not win the round in my book.

I more than am, you just don't like my scoring.

 

Valdes was no 2 when Liston beat him.
Big Oaf?
Valdes beat
London
Cockell
Richardson
Neuhaus
Summerlin
Sys
Jackson
Bethea
Parker
Charles
McMurtry
Erskine
DeJohn
His record stacks up well against any 50's heavyweight.
Saying Valdes would lose to," him and him," is just your opinion.
Who predicted Valdes would beat Charles?
Rex Layne?
Good win over Walcott
Good win over Satterfield
A win over so so Brion
A win over washed up Thompson