Which Fighter's Were Most Damaged By Taking One Fight Too Many?

Greg Page.

Terrible way to go out. In a crappy arena, with no doctor, no oxygen, no ambulance, commissioners who didn't care when Page's camp complained before the fight, against a guy who was convicted of murder only a year later ... just a complete **** show.

Page was arguably the second-best heavyweight to come out of Kentucky ... and it ironically all went down in his home state. You'd think, with Page being the only reason people showed up, they might care an iota.

Definitely one fight too many.

 

While he was certainly a grown man capable of making his own decisions, Ali was surrounded by con men and grifters with a vested interest in riding the gravy train as long as they could.

The only signs of any integrity around him were Ferdie Pacheco quitting prior to Shavers. Bundini wanted Ali to go out for one more round against Holmes; Don King promoted that debacle. I think Dundee could’ve spoken up more forcefully or walked away, but he always maintained he was worried another trainer who didn’t know Ali’s personality wouldn’t know when to stop. It still went on too long.

 

I agree the flock of vultures surrounding Ali are the main culprits.

But Ali's massive ego also played a role, he was too infatuated with his own legend and the media character took over the real person.

 

Far too many, to state the obvious. Joe Louis, shockingly fed to Marciano, in his last fight.
Sugar Ray’s outrageous record of activity over 200 fights, took its grim toll eventually.
Jimmy Ellis was another to suffer several batterings dating from his win ? in the Patterson fight right through to 1975. Resulting in another sad ending.

 

I recall Ferdie Pacheco saying the Spinks fight really hurt Ali, Spinks, while not all that historically , was a 6 foot 200 plus pound Olympic champ who teed off on a suddenly vulnerable older fighter. I give Pacheco credit, he got away from Ali when he saw what was happening to him while the rest of Ali's vulture entourage rode him down into the ground.

 

I hate that people just lump Don King into people who are responsible - or try to make him primarily responsible - for Ali's demise.

After Manila, which people say Ali should've retired after, Don King promoted four Ali fights. Three were supposed to be absolute cakewalks.

On the other hand, Bob Arum promoted six Ali fights after Manila, including the disastrous Ali-Inoki fight, which damaged Ali's legs, and the Nation of Islam promoted Ali-Berbick, which somehow gets lumped in to being King's fault as well.

After Manila, King only promoted Ali's fights versus:
*Jean Pierre Coopman, who Ali was supposed to beat easily and did (basically a free million dollars)
*Jimmy Young, who Ali was supposed to beat easily, but Ali didn't train.
*Alfredo Evangelista, who Ali did beat easily, again, another free million dollars.
*And the Holmes fight, which, of course King wanted Ali to face Holmes, because King PROMOTED HOLMES.

Nobody ever brings up Bob Arum, who promoted Ali-Dunn, Ali-Inoki, Ali-Norton III, Ali-Shavers, Ali-Spinks 1, Ali-Spinks 2 ... or the Nation of Islam, which promoted Ali-Berbick ... all fights people here are saying Ali shouldn't have had if he'd retired after Manila.

And nobody brings up that Ali failed so miserably against Holmes because he was abusing PEDs so badly he nearly had a stroke.

Don King didn't give him PEDs. Don King had Ali go to Johns Hopkins for a physical to prove he was capable of fighting. Johns Hopkins passed him.

Don King wasn't Ali's trainer. Don King wasn't his manager. Don King wasn't his doctor. Don King was NOT stuffing PEDs down Ali's throat by the handful. Don King had ZERO control over Ali's career.

Bob Arum was Ali's primary promoter from the mid 1960s until he won the rematch with Spinks.

Don King was Ali's sole promoter for 18 months in the 1970s.

He was the sole promoter of Ali's fights from Foreman in Oct. 74 to Young in April 76.

After King got the Coopman fight, Ali's manager Herbert Muhammad was afraid King was going to win over Ali so he started using Arum again.

And, if John Tate hadn't been stopped last minute by Mike Weaver, Bob Arum would've promoted Tate-Ali, too. (Holmes-Ali never would've happened. Because King had no say.)

Don King wasn't in control of any of the fights later in Ali's career.

Don King hadn't promoted an Ali fight in more than four years when Tate lost, and Ali decided he'd fight Holmes.

The people responsible for Ali's condition are, in order:

Muhammad Ali
Herbert Muhammad (his manager, who took half his money)
Angelo Dundee (his chief trainer)
Wally Muhammad (who trained Ali for most of his training camps)
Ali's doctors (who gave him PEDs and didn't monitor his intake)
The state athletic commissions that kept giving Ali licenses to fight
The state athletic commission doctors, specifically the one in Nevada who approved him fighting Holmes
Ali's new wife Veronica, who told him she thought he won the Berbick fight and wanted him to keep going
The Nation of Islam (which promoted his last fight against Berbick even after the Holmes debacle)
Bob Arum - Ali's primarily promoter during his slide, when Ali was taking "all this damage" and everyone says he should've been retired

Don King doesn't make the top 10. He gave Ali three easy fights after Manila (well, Young was supposed to be easy), and he got HIS fighter Larry Holmes the Ali fight when Arum's champ Tate fell through ... and King even got Ali a physical at Johns Hopkins when people were concerned about his condition. And Ali passed.

Ali's corner wouldn't even the stop the Holmes fight when it was clear Ali was done. Dundee waited for Herbert Muhammad to tell him to stop it. Dundee was a coward. So was the Nevada commission and its doctors. They were all sitting ringside watching Ali get pummeled. A doctor watching the beatdown didn't get up on the apron, examine Ali and stop the fight. Dundee didn't tell a doctor he wanted the fight stopped. Dundee got a nod from Herbert Muhammad, and Dundee called the referee over and told him the fight was over.

The Nevada commission, the doctors and Ali's corner did nothing. A Nevada commission doctor wasn't even in the corner to stop the fight. How does a doctor sitting ringside not go up and put an end to that? How did THOSE GUYS get a pass?

Was Don King supposed to throw in the towel for Ali so King's own fighter won? Was Don King supposed to cancel the fight when the Nevada Commission, the Nevada doctors, Johns Hopkins doctors, Ali's manager, Ali's trainers, and Ali ... were all ready for the fight to go on?

Hell, two months after the Holmes fight, Ali's manager Herbert Muhammad was trying to make a fight with Ali and British champ John L. Gardner ... and Ali was ALL FOR IT. Don King wasn't involved at all. MAPS (Muhammad Ali Professional Sports) - bankrolled by bank robber Harold Smith/Ross Fields and Herbert Muhammad were going to promote it. The Holmes fight wasn't slowing down Herbert.

It's completely ridiculous to blame King for Ali's condition. Utterly ridiculous.

 

Meldrick Taylor. The hammering he took against Norris was very bad .He was never the same again. Fighting Norris was one of the stupidest decisions in boxing. Ironically both men are in poor health now.

 

Zab Judah definitely stayed around for one fight too long when he fought Seldin. Luckily, he seems to have recovered fully.

 

Great post on Ali

I don't pretend to be an Ali expert but have read my fair share and watched documentaries and never heard about Veronica telling him he won vs Berbick and to go on and the planning for the British champ for a fight. Can you give more info on that?

Any by PEDs do you mean the thyroid medication he was taking vs Holmes that in effect served as weight loss pills or something else?

 

Yes, she was in Ali's dressing room in the Bahamas with John Travolta, of all people, who was one of the celebrities there. And she was flirting with Travolta. And when Ali returned to the dressing room, she, among others there, including Travolta, told Ali they thought he won.

Info on the fight with John L. Gardner is easily accessible with online searches. Most of the reporting was done in December 1980 thru the Spring of 1981. Gardner agreed to the fight, but the BBBC warned him if he took it he might be punished. And it couldn't take place in the UK. They tried to make it in Japan. Then, I believe, they tried Hawaii. A public meeting was held, but the commission wouldn't approve unless Nevada lifted its suspension of Ali (they'd suspended his license). Then Harold Smith got arrested for robbing the Wells Fargo Bank (and he was putting up the money for the fight) in early 1981. So, then it got moved to the Bahamas, promoted by the Nation of Islam, and they gave the fight to Berbick.

The lawyer who prosecuted Smith wrote a good book about the whole thing. It's a little clunky but has a lot of info.

There were four drugs Ali was taking for the fight, and he was gobbling them down to increase their effectiveness, but he was basically overdosing.

You can find it with a few searches.

YET, the commission only commented post-fight on all the drugs he was taking. They didn't utter a word during all the physicals and all the lab work happening prefight.

Were Ali and his team giving them someone else's urine AND blood for prefight tests (doubtful), or were they all there prefight too and the Nevada Commission and its doctors were just complicit ... because they didn't want the fight called off, either?

If the drugs ended up helping and Ali won, I doubt we'd have ever heard about it.

When he looked so bad, the public demanded to know why. And they couldn't hide from it.

It's not like the drugs were only in his system post-fight. There was a long buildup and long training camp. Lots of testing done. All's conditioning was highly scrutinized during the buildup.

 

Very tragic. Too bad he didn't stick to being a trainer.

 

Dude, take a breath - I said King was at fault for promoting this fight. That's all. If Arum had promoted the fight, I'd be saying the same thing. You're putting a lot of words and beliefs on my post that just aren't there. I was trying to be succinct. Yeah, the list of people at fault for Ali's decline is long and varied. I agree, Herbert leads the list. Nothing happened without his say-so.

King was a thief, end of story. Ali's lawyer Michael Phenner said King was balking at having to pay Ali $8 million for the Holmes fight and tried to reduce it to $7 million. Phenner refused and said King had to honor the contract or face a lawsuit. King had a meeting alone with Ali, brought a suitcase with $50,000 in cash and coerced Ali into taking the cash and signing a release for the additional $1 million. So, he took the beating of his life and lost another $950,000. Nice.

"And nobody brings up that Ali failed so miserably against Holmes because he was abusing PEDs so badly he nearly had a stroke."

No, EVERYBODY brings that up. It's maybe the worst-kept secret about the fight. Charles Williams should have had his license suspended.

 

Ali.